Har har, that's hilarious. :rolleyes:

Could someone (preferrably American) describe to me what the Afghan people has done to you to deserve such animosity?

/Tiny Slow Learner

It is not the "people" it is the Taliban government.

Rarely do "people" piss other people off. Usually it is clubs, organizations, groups, etc.

Then there is double crossing the Gov commited when America trained them to defend them selves against the Russians... The rest you can read on the Web.

Ditto

Hm, as I'm not exclsivly watching Fox, I do have a clue as to what is going on in the world. My point (although the sarcasm got lost in there somewhere) was that since GWB invaded Afghanistan and removed the Taliban rule, I conclude two things:
1. The people of Afhanistan should not be considered enemies of the USA
2. There is no Taliban govt to be considered an enemy.

ergo – no need to continue with the smiting of the poor Afghanis who have seen enough negative things to last them 'til Armageddon. Pissing on their flag would be the equivalence of doing it on the Stars n' Stripes because some stupid white supremacists like to wave it around.

/Tiny Equality

The Taliban is rushing back to power faster than you can say lemony snicket. We have a bare bones contingent in Afghanistan and we're really only in control of the capitol. Also, we have been propping up and supporting local warlords which is going to bite us in the ass later on.

To slightly misquote the West Wing "when you stand that close to an enemy, it's hard not to paint you all with the same brush".

Ok, I see now. Let's all piss on their flag...

1. Q: (although the sarcasm got lost in there somewhere)
A: I do my best to promote sarcasm….I do apologize for not reading your sarcasm as such.

2. Q: I conclude two things: 1. The people of Afhanistan should not be considered enemies of the USA
A: Well, I would at least say that “some” people who live in Afghanistan are not enemies of anyone, including the US. But this still is not about people, but groups.

3. There is no Taliban govt to be considered an enemy.
A: They are no longer organized, but they are waiting in the wings. Although, before I say another word, it does need to be mentioned that the photo Morg posted was probably painted and tacked up in a white trash trailer park (by the looks of it, and the misspelling of the ampersand “&”). So it is designed to promote the hateful silly sentiment of “those people,” and not all people.

Here is my quick primitive and honest take on this (Afghanistan):

The Afghanistan gov have refused to hand over guest Osama bin Laden. This pisses Americans off. Even if America has historically harboured known mass murderers from other countries.

Americans fought long and hard for things like equal rights for women, and now wants to enforce these enlightenments on others. Those that are not willing to step up to the 21st century should be locked in 12th century prisons from the view of many Americans.

4. Q: ergo – no need to continue with the smiting of the poor Afghanis who have seen enough negative things to last them 'til Armageddon. Pissing on their flag would be the equivalence of doing it on the Stars n' Stripes because some stupid white supremacists like to wave it around.
A: See, this is the great thing about flags…they are a single easy to make symbol everyone can focus on.

Lets face it, there are very few wars that have fun solid clearly defined sides.

I have to admit, I think that Osama commited a “world” crime, and therefore there should be a world court, which stands above the Supreme court, and handles these things.

I also believe that Islamicism promotes a system of thinking that tortures many, demonstrably the women. I would like to see a long term (this could take a very long time) system of education put into place to counter the effects of all religion. But if we look back on our own histories (yours, mine, America’s) each “group” has needed to fight its own demons and battles.

100 years ago, children were chained to machines to keep them working, women had no rights to government, or even to chose their profession, Victorian morality stifled expression, and this is America.

I hesitate to post, because I have been putting my foot in my own mouth as of late and getting way off topic. So I will only say all point of views are very valid, and it is through discussions such as this that we come to terms with ourselves and our place on Earth.

It was also probably posted just after 9-11 and before America invaded. It doesn't seem to be very "up-to-date."

Reichart,
Dang! I was just about to say that this is why we're not supposed to discuss politics on this forum and call it quits when you pull this excellent summary out. I can settle for this with the exception that I (personally) don't believe it's Islam all in itself which is to blame for the torturing you mention but rather the state of society in many muslim countries (like I don't think catholicism promotes a system of thinking where deviants should be tortured and/or burnt alive like the inquisition (sp?) did in the dark ages).

P.S. I was retty sure this thread wouldn't get locked up as the original instigation was added by our administrator ;)

Morgan,
Thanks for mentioning Lemony Snicket. That's my Anglo-Saxon tidbit of the day...

Edit:
Pat,
The Afghans didn't destroy the WTC, the Afghan government refused to flush out Osama bin Laden which made GWB's PR machine tell the US bombing the crap out of Afghanistan was a proper retaliation. U.S. armed forces killed a greater number of civilians in the Afghanistan campaign than the number of casualties in 9-11 WTC disaster, how can that be acceptable? If two Swedes kill an American, would it be justifiable to kill three innocent Swedes in order to catch the two murderes? (and then not even manage to catch them)

/Tiny One More Time

Yeah, what's up with that Morgan? :confused:

1. Q: like I don't think catholicism promotes a system of thinking where deviants should be tortured and/or burnt alive like the inquisition (sp?) did in the dark ages

A: Uh, er, I think I can only respond with one word...Ireland.

Are deviants being tortured in Ireland? Perhaps we should have GWB point his Tomahawk missiles towards Cork & Dublin?

Never mind, I'm not into any religion at all and will rather say I was wrong than take a beating for all the stupidity religion has done through the ages.

/Tiny Theophobist

Have y'all never heard the saying 'war is hell'? There never is anything fair about any kind of hatred we may have towards one another. But there is also the premise that if we do nothing when we are attack but stand back like whimpering dogs with our tails tuck between our legs, then we deserve any additional abuse we may received. What has religion got to do with war? What has religion got to do with politics? None!! But it does. We all know that it does. Two wrongs do not make a right. Islam in its truest form is as good as any. All religions, even Christianity keep women in servitude. I look at today’s liberation of women and people of minority races; they do not know how to handle their new found freedoms. These nations that are receiving democracy will not be able to hang onto them. There are always tyrants in the wings waiting for opportunities to leap like a lion on a lamb and seize the power as so many have done throughout history. Yet we continue to struggle, to fight, because if we don’t, then ‘we are history’ as a free people. Do I believe in war? Yes! I will fight right now for my home, my family, my friends, my freedom, and woe to those who might come between me and those I seek. You are either with me or against me. If you are neutral, then get out of the way, because if I must I will go through you. So there is my opinion on all of this, and I grant you the right to yours.

PEACE

Another saying: Freedom is not free. It costs lives, money, hard work, determination, sacrifices, the ability to burn and/or pee on flags, etc...

At the risk of adding to the political direction this thread is going in...
This "freedom" that the Americans always seem to rally around...... how is it different than the freedoms of other countries. Say England, Australia, Canada, France.......?
You pay taxes, you drive with the permission of a licence and insurance, you pay what the market will bear when you purchase your goods. You are not "free" to marry your cousin or have multiple partners. You are not free to build a house where you want. Heck, you can't even go for a holiday to Cuba.
Freedom of choice in your elections?.... Freedom to send your child to the school of your choice? To get the medical treatment you need? The job you want.......
Those with money have choices but I don't see much freedom.


:confused:

Hm, Seems like nobody want to touch my question about killing a couple of Swedes while trying to catch some others?

Didn't think so either...

Peace/Freedom/Whatever

I guess nobody can visualize a scenario where the first two Swedes would have committed the murder, let alone killing innocent ones trying to track them down. It must be great to live in a country where no one harbours you any ill will :)

In heated debate, (or any debate!), the proponents focus can become blinkered, objectivism goes out the window! IMHO!


ps, - Would it be alright to burn the bloody screensaver? ;)

I'll take a crack at it. :) I'll answer your hypothetical question with another one. If 1 crazy maniac blew up the Royal Palace in Stockholm, killing 1 person, then fled to Norway where the government there protected him, called him a hero, and encouraged other maniacs to do more of the same, what would you want your Swedish governement to do?

Hey, as long as you pay for your copy, you can do whatever you want with it. Right Reichart? :)

You've jumped right in there with both feet Patrick! ..... IIMSS!

Why answer a question with a question? - Why not try an answer?

I repeat, (ie, please read!) ....... the proponents focus can become blinkered, objectivism goes out the window!

Listen to each other! .......... talk! ........... don't just go out there and kill!



ps, - If burning the bloody screensaver would stop all this crap, - I'd do it immediately! :)

Jim,
I'm not being ironic, but I didn't get that. Could you rephrase it a little?

Pat,
I dunno, kill two other Norwegians and wait for 'em to retaliate in turn?

Look, I know there wasn't that many options left for GWB and his boys but to charge after Osama with everything they had. It's a Devil's alternative – You got to act, but if you do, people will get hurt. I just want everybody to lay off the "Everything we do is right and it serves those idiots right to live in caves because we got our skyscraper and 2000 people blown to bits". Never mind that Ali bin Afghan hadn't even heard of the U.S. of A. before his wife got killed.

Perhaps it was what had to be done, but at least have the common decency to feel sorry for those, just as innocent, victims as well as your own instead of pissing on their flag!

/Tiny Dragon's Teeth

Your implicit assumption is that this picture is somehow contemporary, reflecting the current geopolitical realities, and indicates a continuing resentment toward Afghanistan in general. What if the picture had been taken right after 9/11, before any action had been taken against the Taliban government of Afghanistan? Would that make the sentiment (antagonism toward Afghanistan) more understandable, if still inappropriately expressed?

I am indeed sorry for all the victims of that (ongoing) struggle in Afghanistan. In this particular case, at least an attempt has been made to change the situation (hopefully for the better) in that country, as opposed to lobbing bombs/missiles at the country in "retaliation" (your "kill two Norwegians" approach). The latter approach was tried by "WJC and his boys" (Bill Clinton, for those following along at home), to use your turn of phrase, without much success.

Anyone else notice the link to the picture has been removed?

Does that mean we have to stop now?

Ralph, without directly answering your question about who is more free, I do love that you equate paying taxes with a loss of freedom, but am truly bewildered by equating a “free market” with this loss.

In every single thing you listed, those “are” my examples of freedoms.

Taxes/Insurance: a system where we attempt to work as a team to free up local resources and incurred costs, and spread them across the entire family/clan/city/state/country. Just the idea of a country without taxes makes my skin crawl.


Addy: ps, - Would it be alright to burn the bloody screensaver?
A: In what cause would you burn it in? the problem is, the screen saver is designed to stop burn in! I suggest Burning it to a CD, and then burning the CD.

Michael (B),
"My Kill two Norwegians approach" was written with irony. The thought was that Pat would see that then they would kill three Swedes and we would kill four of them until we had an outright war which I can't imagine was to his liking.

Let's assume the picture was taken right after 9-11 (which I think/hope too). – My assumption – implicit or not – was that the posting of the picture represented something of an opinion that this was an acceptable action to take. Hopefully it wasn't and further pictures with similar content should IMO be added to the list of things not wanted to be seen by "moms and ten-year-olds" on this forum.

/Until Tomorrow – Gotta go

Tiny - Feeling sorry for people is America's stock-in-trade. We are the Kings of Sorry. Never in the history of the world has a nation felt SO sorry for practically everyone. We spend unimaginable amounts of money developing weapons which cause the least amount of innocent casualties, when we could easily press one button and vaporize the whole problem. We endlessly debate the morality of every action, until the very concept of right and wrong loses all meaning. We go bankrupt feeding, housing, clothing, healing (and even arming) those who would destroy us. Then we mortgage our children's future, and do it some more. Sorry has achieved nothing. Sorry has made us the most hated nation on Earth, and we're sick of it. If Russia or Germany or Sweden want the job of World Cop, they are welcome to it. We'll leave the keys to the Police Cruiser at the doughnut shop.

LOL....and sooooooooooooooooo true.

Truer words were never spoken.
Cheers and a standing ovation, I nominate Jim Sachs for president.


:TU:

Well said Jim.

Edit: You edited your post while I was typing mine, Marian... After saying what he just said, do you think he'd want the job??? ;)

I respectfully decline the nomination :)

...that is why it must be you.
/Gladiator

:)

You do realize that being President would greatly slow down my work on the Aquarium.

Delegate Jim, Delegate. :) :)

OK, I'll delegate - You be President and I'll work on the Aquarium.

But you'd have minions Jim, minions... Think about it... You could work on the aquarium and they could do all that other stuff...

Ah, minions. I've always wanted minions. I hear they're great with truffle sauce.

This could be drawing to a close, (lets hope!), so I promise this is MY last comment on the subject.

A few quotes from this - "debate".
Very true!
Emotions, getting way out of control.
Definitely NOT true, - but understandable to a point.


It is difficult to see yourself as others see you, but believe me, if more people came across as Jim's comment does, (with a few amendments), America (USA), would not be the hated nation it is fast becoming.

Some of the great problems of this world, Politics, Religion, Patriotism, and most importantly, - greed, will never be overcome until people listen to each other, and see each other's point of view. ..... We have to do it. - We have to talk and listen!

We in the UK have a problem that has been going on for a lot longer, - Northern Ireland!!!

The bottom line is, - the two sides have to decide, if they want to return to self-government, - more than they want to hate each other!

At the end of the day, both sides have to compromise, it has to happen, - and will ......... EVENTUALLY.

I will now be :silent:

Wow, I ignore a thread just because I don't have the screensaver and I miss out on all this lovely political debate! :rolleyes:
Jim, only someone who absolutely doesn't want the job should be President. If you got the job, could you please send ALL the Senators and such to Mars?
As for the help we've been in changing Islamic society while bombing the crap out of Afganistan and Iraq, remember that until we were unable to capture Osama or Saddam or find WMDs, those were the ostensible reasons we were there. Then suddenly the reason became "liberating the Iraqi people." Just like it is now being touted that we went not because there were actual WMDs but because there was a "weapons program." I still maintain that the real reason is oil, though I'm sure many will disagree. It seems that Bush had his eye on Middle Eastern oil for a long time, and 9/11 became a handy excuse to invade that part of the world. Yeah, something had to be done. My thought is, why not actually show some restraint and catch the terrorist groups and their leaders and try them in world court instead of going the old "eye for an eye" route and killing thousands of innocents in the process? I also find it rather convenient that Saddam Hussein was "captured" at the beginning of an election year. Call me a cynic.
Oh, by the way, what ever happened to Manuel Noreiga?

This is a religious point of view. Please do not read if it will offend you. I would block it out if I knew how.

There is only one solution to Earth problems. Man can not solve the problems of this world, only a one government rule of the entire Earth will do it; a government with Jesus Christ sitting on the throne, abiding by the Ten Commandants and the strict enforcement of same.

I know this view will get me ridicule, care not I, it is the truth and sometimes the truth hurts.