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feldon34 01-18-2001 07:55 PM

New Aquarium Sounds
 
People have asked for new Aquarium sounds

pub41.ezboard.com/fsachsaquariumfrm1.showMessageRange?topicID=3.topi c&start=21&stop=40

but yet nobody has posted or offered any new recordings that they'd like to see in place of the bubbles. I don't have the proper equipment to record these sounds on location, otherwise I'd try to make my own sounds. And I wouldn't let the 60k limitation stop you. Produce a low-res version of the sound and then a high-res version and maybe Jim will let the Aquarium use an external looped WAV file for those willing to download larger sound loops. After all, people put up with 13 MB downloads for a web browser, the Aquarium growing 100k with a bigger sound sample as an *optional* thing wouldn't hurt. :)

This does not replace the interest in the Aquarium launching a commandline such as Winamp with your favorite playlist upon startup... This would be a relatively easy addition to the Settings window.

Jim Sachs 01-18-2001 10:51 PM

Re: New Aquarium Sounds
 
Regarding the 60k limit - I'm willing to consider sound files that are a little bigger, but keep in mind that one of my main goals is that the entire Aquarium program will always fit on a floppy. The Zipped version is almost half a floppy now, and there are a very large number of fish and invertebrates to go.

--- Jim Sachs

feldon34 01-18-2001 11:50 PM

Re: New Aquarium Sounds
 
Jim,

Will the Aquarium ever have support for external additions such as sounds in WAV format? If not, then we know what our boundaries are and what the size of the sound canvas is. :)

If extensability of the sound happens through external WAV file support, then we have many options to extend the sound...

In all cases, the present bubbles (60kb 22 KHz 16 bit?) would continue to be stored internally as the default (or whatever other 60kb sound you might settle on as you receive submissions).

Then externally, we can have external WAV files with a few Serenescreen sponsored loops and then any other sounds people end up creating. This would also allow us to produce high-end sounds including a 44 KHz 16-bit Stereo loop with Dolby Pro Logic surround sound encoding.


If we do not get extensability in the Aquarium for an external WAV, you could still...

Store the present bubbles (60kb 22 KHz 16 bit?) internally as the default sound and also store a longer mp3-encoded WAV file (60-100kb 44 KHz 16-bit) that can be optionally turned on depending on the speed of the user's computer.

We don't need to know the answer to this immediately to start submitting sounds but we'd like to know eventually. :)


And if you add support for a program being launched externally when the Aquarium launches, then that opens it up to all of the above plus the possibility of Dolby 5.1 recorded sound being triggered without any further effort on your part. :) :)


Don't overestimate user's ability to, and interest in, plugins and extensions to software. People find ways to enhance software that was never designed to be enhanced :)


Next week, I'll ask whether loadable BMP files with an 8-bit alpha map (so you have enough information in the BMP to build a 3D coral shadow mesh with) will be coming :)

Dave Snotear 01-19-2001 01:24 AM

Re: New Aquarium Sounds
 
Jim,
I don't mean to imply that because I purchased your program that the program size is any of my concern,I am just curious as to why a 1.44 meg floppy disk would dictate future content of what is now a truly amazing piece of programming and which I feel will only get better as time goes by.Like I said "I'm just curious."Thanks for all your hard work and patience in dealing with,what appears to be, a very demanding group of enthusiasts.

Jim Sachs 01-19-2001 03:43 AM

Re: New Aquarium Sounds
 
I'll answer Dave's question first. There are several reasons I want the program to fit on a floppy.

1. I've got about 10 computers around here, and the only way they all have of sharing data is the floppy drive. Whenever I make the slightest change in the Aquarium, I have to test it on all those different machines.

2. I allow Key holders to use the Aquarium on all their machines. So they can download it at home, put it on a floppy and install it on their machine at work. I can't stand downloading something which won't quite fit on a floppy, then trying to figure out how to transfer it to another machine.

3. Coming from the Amiga community, I am amazed at the bloat that is so rampant in the PC world, so I just feel like leading a charge the other way, toward lean, mean programs. Why does it take 3 minutes instead of 3 seconds for my computer to boot up? The enormous amount of wasted bytes that it has to process can't be helping the situation.

--- Jim Sachs

hpman77 01-19-2001 04:16 AM

Floppy? why only one?
 
Well, I suppose that if the only way to store the data is gonna be floppy disk, it would limit it's contents a lot...

My suggestion is:
Let the aquarium "as is" now, as a "main program", and next fishes, backgrounds, sounds... in separate floppys as "add-ons"...


I suppose an octopus (I know, I know, we still don't know what botton dweller will you add) will take some hundreds Kb, as I suppose it's mesh and animation will be fair more complex than a fish one... and a single floppy will be very limited :)

Well, that's only a suggestion :)

Jim Sachs 01-19-2001 04:27 AM

Re: New Aquarium Sounds
 
Now I'll tackle Morgan's question. I just don't foresee allowing the user to load his .wav files. It's the same problem as letting them use their own graphics. The potential for abuse is enormous. My goal is to avoid the following conversation 10 years from now:

Man on Street: "Hey dude, didn't you used to be Jim Sachs who made that aquarium where the fish burped?"

Jim: "Well, somebody else added those sounds..."

Man on Street: "Yeah, sure - and you're famous for those exploding mermaids, man."

Jim: "Actually, sombody else...oh, never mind."

Jim Sachs 01-19-2001 04:38 AM

Re: Floppy? why only one?
 
My short-term goal is to keep everything in one file. I get a large amount of e-mails from people who have trouble installing the single file. I assume this would at least double if I had even two files.

I am using very good data compression on the 3D meshes, and would be surprised if even the octopus is over 60k.

--- Jim Sachs

Dave Snotear 01-19-2001 06:15 AM

Re: Floppy? why only one?
 
Jim,
Thanks for the reply.I appreciate your time.

01-19-2001 11:18 PM

Small size = successful!
 
I stand for Jim's aim to make everything small.

Didn't we see that he already done an excellent job to keep many wonderful creatures in such small, single file?

Nowadays, programmer just know how to put garbage into their so-called upgrade program to pay no attention to the file size and system resouces usage.

hpman77 01-22-2001 06:06 AM

Re: Small size = successful!
 
Agreed :)
I'm tired too of those small programs which takes mb and mb, and I can't understand what's that garbage code for. I suppose actually almost nobody clean his code...

I'm really impressed for such a compress method... I would though on octopus animation and textures over 200k, at least, and Jim thinks about 60k... man, that's amazing!

You should think on creating a compressor better than RAR or ACE ;) I would buy it for sure! :cool:

Jim, you're right when you say actually you made some things in the aquarium that were supposed to be impossible, but I think the best incredible things are hidden in the process of making all others possible... you're great, man, simply great! I'll have to call you "Mr. Sachs" ;)

feldon34 01-22-2001 01:26 PM

Re: Small size = successful!
 
I just hope the file size limitation does not prohibit rich Aquarium sounds, multiple high-resolution 3D modeled backgrounds, and as many fish and invertebrates as Jim can throw at us.

02-15-2001 11:25 PM

Re: Small size = successful!
 
Jim,

I know what you mean. I personally like smaller programs (it's like having a tidy house). Makes linking painless and debugging easyer. But features will probably break the bank someday.

Sounds are tricky. To keep up with the quality of your application it needs to be CD-quality. To make the sound seem continous we need to either make the pattern really long or layer it with additional sounds (just like you do with the bubbles visually).

Can you support multiple layers, more then one wav file playing at once? I assume this is supported in directx.


To solve the size problem, what about creating a "fish" file format. Your program could come with 10 fish built into the executable and the rest could be downloaded. This would also allow others to create there own fish!!!

Just a thought on the fish format:


StingRay.zip // A zip file could contain a fish
-----------------
fish.ini // Describes fish (see below)
image.jpg // Image map of fish
imageMask.jpg // Image to blend with fish image
bumb.jpg // Bump map of fish
bumbMask.jpg // Image to blend with bump image
structure.dfx // 3D structure of the fish


fish.ini
----------------
[info]
name = Sting Ray
desc = A cool looking fish I want to have
diet = little fish?
author = Fish man
image = image.jpg
mask = image.jpg
bumpmap = bumpmap.jpg
structure = structure.dfx
size = 2
speed = 3
randomizeSize = true
randomizeSpeeding = true
digging = 8
RandomizeMaskBlending = 4 ; 0-10
detail = 9
shyness = 7
smart = 7
hungry = 5
yawning = 0
* a lot missing *


Note:
o All numbers are in ranges are between 0-10
o Masks could be blended in randomly to make each instance of a fish look different
o Fish files would allow you to test your program with out recompiling...


I'm veering off the path a bit but this could allow you
to minimize your executable size.

-James

feldon34 02-16-2001 02:39 AM

Re: Small size = successful!
 
James,

Well, Jim is pretty adamant about keeping the fish format secret and not allow any Tom, Dick, or Harry to come along and just modify things. Leaving the texture maps and DXF files laying around is exactly what Jim has said several times he does not want to do, for fear that people will make major changes to the Aquarium, and it will get redistributed.

For the sound, Jim also wants to keep it inside the file. This does put some limits on how long the sound file can be. External sound files are out of the question because he is concerned about people modifying the Aquarium with obscene/rude sounds and it getting redistributed in that form.

Jim has been open about receiving photos for making the fish and has said that our developing fish for the Aquarium in a rough form (which he would polish and fold into later releases) is not out of the question however.

I agree with you that layered sounds are the key. Jim said that he's already receiving lots of e-mails from people having glitches and problems with 1 sound channel which uses the most rudimentary code. So he is afraid of trying multi-channel sound, even though he's always agreed that this was the answer to realistic sound.

So I'm not sure where exactly we go from here except for us to produce single-channel looped sound files of 60-120kb and submit them to Jim.

02-16-2001 12:17 PM

Re: Small size = successful!
 
Jim,

I also come from the Amiga community, and I can more than understand your feelings about "bloated software". Seeing the talent in some Amiga programmers (like the 40K demo competition entries, for example), I can more than relate.

If you can do everything you plan with this screensaver and STILL manage to fit it on a floppy, it will be a testament to what good, efficient programming can do.

05-23-2001 02:24 AM

back on topic about sounds
 
Jim, you're probably not going to like this, but from the perspective of someone who doesn't own a real aquarium, the new sound in 99k seems less realistic than earlier versions.

The reason I say this is that the bubble sounds seem to include deeper sounds, which seem to me to sound like larger bubbles breaking the surface of the water, but there are no larger bubbles. The old sound just sounded like small bubbles, like there are in the tank.

Of couse someone who owns a real aquarium might say the deeper sounds are caused by something else - comments anyone?

Jim Sachs 05-23-2001 02:41 AM

Re: back on topic about sounds
 
Comments in the e-mails seem to be running about 20-1 in favor of the new sound.

hooters 05-23-2001 02:50 AM

Re: New Aquarium Sounds
 
all i can say is i love the new sound

05-23-2001 05:29 AM

re : New Aquarium Sounds
 
Democracy is a good thing ! ;)

05-23-2001 05:36 AM

Re: New Aquarium Sounds
 
Man... exploding mermaids can't wait ;)

05-23-2001 10:44 AM

feeding the fish
 
if i can feed the fish, that would be cool

FishyBusiness 05-23-2001 11:23 AM

Re: feeding the fish
 
Chrissy,

You will be able to feed the fish in a future version of the aquarium.

FishyBusiness 05-23-2001 11:31 AM

Re: back on topic about sounds
 
Tim4web,

The sound is a fresh water aquarium sound. Jim edited it a little bit.

I personally love the new sound. True, it is a bit unrealistic but some compromises had to be made in order to get a sound that the majority of people with different speakers and ears would like.

feldon34 05-23-2001 03:08 PM

Re: back on topic about sounds
 
Reduce the bubble sounds, increase a hissing sound, and add the soft drone of filters and motors and I'll be happy. if I had a Minidisc, I'd record the sound for Jim.

Coelacanth 05-24-2001 08:51 PM

Re: back on topic about sounds
 
I have never, ever seen a reef aquarium with a bubble wand or large airstone in the tank anyway. And I've seen a LOT of tanks, at fish stores, shows, and public aquariums. It's a nice graphical touch for the screensaver, sure, but in my experience most reefkeepers consider it to be unnecessary and actually a little detrimental to the tank because it can really contribute to salt creep -- which can in turn have an effect on the salinity. (The more salt that gets "skimmed" out of the water by the bubbles, pushed onto the hood, sides, or other areas, the lower the specific gravity.) Plus, salt creep is just ugly and a pain to clean.

Having said that, I think the bubbles are a nice option to have in the screensaver. I turn the sound off, though. The reason a lot of reefers put small slits in standpipes, for instance, is to *reduce* the amount of gurgling sounds. Motor hums are also something to minimize as much as possible, which explains the existence of pumps like The Quiet One by Lifegard. And chillers are notorious for making a lot of noise (think: car radiator in the aquarium cabinet), so manufacturers have concentrated on new ways to chill the tank without being noisy. So, as far as which bubble sound would be best, I say whichever sound is the quietest and least annoying. Me, I just turn the gurgling sound off. I get enough of that from my REAL aquarium.

In reference to Jim's last post in this thread:

Quote:

1. I've got about 10 computers around here, and the only way they all have of sharing data is the floppy drive. Whenever I make the slightest change in the Aquarium, I have to test it on all those different machines.
I'm telling you, man, network up all of the machines, create a central share point, and post the updates to that! :) (10/100 network cards are about $15 a pop nowadays, and hubs are cheap too, as you probably know.)

Quote:

2. I allow Key holders to use the Aquarium on all their machines. So they can download it at home, put it on a floppy and install it on their machine at work. I can't stand downloading something which won't quite fit on a floppy, then trying to figure out how to transfer it to another machine.
Everybody I know that owns a PC at home and uses a PC at work invariably has a much faster connection at work than at home (usually some sort of broadband, LAN, or in my case, a shared T3). I imagine certain other countries may be more limited, but is the plan to expand the features of the aquarium, or to always play to the lowest common denominator? I don't think you can do both. You are already up to around 680K; I would be surprised if you can get even a fifth of the way through adding the features from the long wishlist before you hit 1440K, no matter what sort of compression scheme you come up with. I am not dissing your considerable abilities, and I sure hope you prove me wrong -- but I think I'm looking at this realistically.

Quote:

3. Coming from the Amiga community, I am amazed at the bloat that is so rampant in the PC world, so I just feel like leading a charge the other way, toward lean, mean programs. Why does it take 3 minutes instead of 3 seconds for my computer to boot up? The enormous amount of wasted bytes that it has to process can't be helping the situation.
Agreed. My first PC was an Apple II (back before IBM stole the "PC" acronym), back when people actually wrote entire programs in assembler (6502). I am always impressed by people that actually take the time to write tight code. Think how our computers would run if Microsloth decided to reduce the mega-bloat in Windows and Office. On the other hand, I'm not so sure that, at least after a few evolutions of this aquarium, the 1.44 MB floppy should dictate your creative ceiling. Even with tight code, it seems like a pretty tall order to cram all or even most of the proposed wishlist features into that amount of space. Again, I hope you prove me wrong on that one. :)

Digital Lungfish 05-25-2001 05:55 PM

Re: back on topic about sounds
 
"Even with tight code, it seems like a pretty tall order to cram all or even most of the proposed wishlist features into that amount of space. Again, I hope you prove me wrong on that one."

Coel, (might as well just call you Seal) ;)

If anything, I'm sure Jim has already proved a great many people wrong with his efforts. I've seen a vast number of other screensavers and demos out there that use far more space and do WAY less than Jim's does in the little space that it occupies.

Yes it is possible that he could exceed the barriers of a 3.5 floppy, but I'm willing to bet that he gets in the majority of his feature set before that ends up happening.

- DL

Coelacanth 05-25-2001 11:29 PM

I hope you're right....
 
...it's just that that wishlist is pretty darn long, and even if only 70% of it, fitting all that onto a floppy seems like a Herculean feat. Not thinking negatively...just realistically given all the features we want added in there. Prove me wrong, Jim! :)

Digital Lungfish 05-25-2001 11:45 PM

Re: I hope you're right....
 
Yeah, I can see where you're coming from, it's true there is no absolute guarantee as we all know, but hey, we can wish for it right?

Oh and by the way, thanks for taking the time to clarify that you're not being negative. I'm pretty sure we all knew that, but it's cool that you took the time to point it out.

Besides, if you had been, I probably would have noticed. My wife accuses me of it all too often. I just keep telling her the same thing "honey, I'm not being negative, I'm being realistic!" ;)

- DL

Coelacanth 05-26-2001 01:36 AM

Re: I hope you're right....
 
I admit there's a pretty fine line, though, between being "realistic" and being negative. I try not to step over the line.

I think a lot of so-called "recording artists" and movie directors hide behind that. They put out all this negative, profane, disturbing, violent, and/or immoral stuff, and then try to defend it by saying, hey, I'm just depicting the "real world." As if the "real world" is never anything but disturbing, profane, immoral and violent.

Whoa! I got way off the aquarium topic, didn't I? :)

Anyway, I guess you could best describe me as "appreciative of Jim's work, very hopeful, but with some healthy skepticism too." :)

Jav400 05-26-2001 10:12 PM

Re: I hope you're right....
 
Coelacanth,

Quote:

"Anyway, I guess you could best describe me as "appreciative of Jim's work, very hopeful, but with some healthy skepticism too."
Hehe, hang around awhile, I've been here for 6 months now, and Jim has managed everything he promised so far.:)

Jim Sachs 05-26-2001 11:47 PM

Re: I hope you're right....
 
Well... maybe not quite EVERYTHING.

05-27-2001 04:48 AM

Re: I hope you're right....
 
Coel,

Just wanted to say that was a cool post!

The bits about real tanks was very educational.

Any links you recommend to find out more ?

Thanks, Tim4web

Coelacanth 05-27-2001 11:58 PM

Re: I hope you're right....
 
Thanks Tim.

Actually I must admit I don't own a marine tank anymore at the moment :(

Saving up for a new one, though. In the meantime, I have freshwater tanks with plants. And I try my best to keep my reef knowledge right up to date so when I do jump in again I'll know as much or more than the owner of the LFS (local fish store).

I'm really interested in this new system called Eco-Wheel that is driven by only a single large air pump, and uses an efficient and low-maintenance combination of "algae scrubbing" (using algae as filtration) and foam fractionation (protein skimming). It is very expensive at first look (too much for my wallet right now), but actually could save in the long run because it replaces wavemakers, skimmers, water pumps, complex plumbing, and other equipment you would normally have in a reef tank. It may also eliminate the need for a chiller because the air pump doesn't heat up the water due to friction like high-powered water pumps do. To me it seems like the ideal system, if it works as advertised.

Their web site is awful: www.aquaticengineers.com -- but the people explained the system in detail to me through e-mail and sent better pictures. (They plan to improve their web site soon).

Hanging out in rec.aquarium.marine.reefs on Usenet is one of the best ways to learn. A lot of the folks there are experienced reefkeepers and are always discussing new things.

For beginning websites, hmm....I like this guy's site:
community-2.webtv.net/deflizard/doc/

And..
www.thereefweb.com

This place has a bunch of links:
www.reefkeepers.org/links/index.html

And these places are online stores:
www.marinedepot.com
www.ffexpress.com
www.petwarehouse.com (carries live marine animals now)
www.oceanrider.com (tank-raised seahorses)
www.harboraquatics.com
www.aquabid.com (the E-bay of the aquarium trade)

And finally, some cool 3D photos of marine life: :)
www.imagequest3d.com/page...marine.htm

Shinsa 05-29-2001 02:04 AM

Re: I hope you're right....
 
coelacanth, want to see some good 'ol programming? Check out what Steve Gibson has at his site. www.grc.com

This is the guy that wrote the program SpinRite. A utility to format your hard drive without losing the data that is on it. He programs everything in Assembler!

feldon34 05-29-2001 07:14 AM

Re: I hope you're right....
 
Coelacanth,

You told them that I'm the one who should re-design their site right?

They did it cookie-cutter in FrontPage or something.

Coelacanth 05-29-2001 08:05 AM

Hehe.......
 
Well, Morgan, they did tell me that they were in the process of contracting out someone to fix up their website. So go for it! :)

And yes, I use grc.com all the time. Also the tools on dslreports.com. And I'm familiar with SpinRite. Steve Gibson is a gifted programmer.

FrogMastr 05-29-2001 06:17 PM

Re: New Aquarium Sounds
 
Gibson's programs are to utilities what Jim's Fish is to screen savers!!!

They are the kind of programmers who are no-more!!!

The one who would enjoy a line lit

real programmers use: C>copy con PROG.COM

hehe! Drop the bloatware! Free our harddrives! Free the memory! Hail to Liberty ;) ))))))))))


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