Marine Aquarium 3 Comments & Appreciation - Page 19

Yodelking · 02-09-2009, 12:14 AM

Originally posted by tormod:

Would it be possible for the calendar machinery to pick up the settings from Windows i.e. if my clock is 24.00 hour use it and if the first day of the week is Monday use that ?

This is a great suggestion! First day of the week in Sweden is Monday.

/Peter

Jim Sachs · 02-09-2009, 01:22 AM

Where are you guys seeing a way of changing the display of 24-hour mode and changing the start-day for the week in Windows?

tormod · 02-09-2009, 01:30 AM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

Where are you guys seeing a way of changing the display of 24-hour mode and changing the start-day for the week in Windows?

In the regional options setting you set the clock using the time format My
format is set to: HH:mm:ss. HH Means I want a 24 hour clock.

But the start of week is locked to the country selected I believe.

Time format...

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Control Panel\International\sTimeFormat

The first day of the week is hidden here:

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Control Panel\International\iFirstDayOfWeek

0 = Monday, 6 = Sunday

tormod

Jim Sachs · 02-09-2009, 01:56 AM

Yes, I read your previous post, but how does the average user change these settings? I can't find an interface anywhere in XP.

Also, I'm not sure if I want to assume that those Registry Keys will be valid for all operating systems.

tormod · 02-09-2009, 03:10 AM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

Yes, I read your previous post, but how does the average user change these settings? I can't find an interface anywhere in XP.

Also, I'm not sure if I want to assume that those Registry Keys will be valid for all operating systems.

ControlPanel->Regional And Language->Regional Options->Customize->Time

Will allow you to set the time format. This is normally set automatically
when you set region and location.

I believe the start of the week is controlled by the locale you have
selected. I.e. Norway

Googling the issue, shows that the only way to override it is via
the registry.

The start of week iFirstDayOfWeek key is present in Windows 2000, XP & Vista.

tormod

cjmaddy · 02-09-2009, 03:38 AM

In Win2k it's ... Start\Settings\Control Panel\Regional Options\Date ... (or Time) ... - (I think XP is the same)

Surferminn · 02-09-2009, 04:06 AM

XP is close but slightly different from 2k - pretty much as Tomod described in words above. Here it is described in a pic.

cjmaddy · 02-09-2009, 04:20 AM

Yodelking · 02-09-2009, 05:30 AM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

Yes, I read your previous post, but how does the average user change these settings? I can't find an interface anywhere in XP.

Also, I'm not sure if I want to assume that those Registry Keys will be valid for all operating systems.

If the registry isn't found on some systems you can view your "Sunday" as first day of the week...

rctneil · 02-09-2009, 07:19 AM

When will Ma3 with the clocks/calendar be available in the installer version?

cjmaddy · 02-09-2009, 07:46 AM

From earlier today! - on the thread called, "MA3 - READ THIS FIRST!"...

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

The "Official" Beta on SereneScreen.com defaults to the Statistics display being OFF. My "Beta-Betas" here will always default to ON. They also have a 14-day lifespan, while the official versions live forever.

Every couple of weeks, if a test version is stable enough, it will become the official download.

Jim Sachs · 02-09-2009, 10:47 AM

Wow, that interface for changing those settings is nearly as obscure as going into the Registry directly. I was hoping for something more along the lines of right-clicking the time readout.

The reason this is imortant is that if get into an area which the average user is not familiar with, we suddenly become responsible for teaching them. If there are 50 million copies of a program out there, and just one person in 1000 is wondering why his clock is showing 24-hour time, that's 50,000 emails. So if I'm going to support other time/date modes, I think that the user will need to be able to set it from within the program, and I shouldn't get the settings from the Registry.

Dale · 02-09-2009, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

Wow, that interface for changing those settings is nearly as obscure as going into the Registry directly. I was hoping for something more along the lines of right-clicking the time readout.

The reason this is imortant is that if get into an area which the average user is not familiar with, we suddenly become responsible for teaching them. If there are 50 million copies of a program out there, and just one person in 1000 is wondering why his clock is showing 24-hour time, that's 50,000 emails. So if I'm going to support other time/date modes, I think that the user will need to be able to set it from within the program, and I shouldn't get the settings from the Registry.

I understand that reasoning.

Of course, it means that you would have to code one more set of "pickers" with user interface, and presumably handle all of the added complexities of 31.12.1999, 1999/12/31, 12/31/1999, 31 DEC 99, December 31, 1999, etc. Not to mention the appropriate names (and single-character abbreviations) for the days, and names of the months (associating them with various choices of language). And explain that somewhere.

There would be significant complexity to doing that, rather than just reading the registry settings - or just saying "No, that's the only way MA3 works".

I just (quickly) counted 11 applications on my PC that display some form of day/time. I'm personally thankful that I don't have to change each of them.

There could be some advantage to being able to tell 50,000 people "It's Microsoft's fault - go ask them".

tormod · 02-09-2009, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by Dale:

There would be significant complexity to doing that, rather than just reading the registry settings - or just saying "No, that's the only way MA3 works".

I just (quickly) counted 11 applications on my PC that display some form of day/time. I'm personally thankful that I don't have to change each of them.

There could be some advantage to being able to tell 50,000 people "It's Microsoft's fault - go ask them".

I agree with Dale, this is the localization interface in Microsoft Windows I
think it makes sense to use them. What about date and time functions in
the libraries are none of them locale aware ?

tormod

cjmaddy · 02-09-2009, 12:48 PM

Just for the record, my system's clock has always been set to display 12:00 hour time. - Beta9a is displaying it the same way. ie, It's now 6:48pm.

Therefore, think of it this way, Jim....

If those 50,000 people are keen enough to have changed their display to or from 24 hour time, then they must already have found out how to do it.
And if they wish to change it again for MA3... (And if my system is anything to go by, they won't need to!)... Then they will know what to do.

I don't personally consider the style of clock/calendar display to be an important detail. - And I don't think you should waste your time on it!

I'm not bothered when I see a clock or a calendar in a bank or in a railway station, etc, I accept it for what it is. - I don't ask them to change its style!

..... Let's all move on!

ps, - Did you say there was a reason, why the MA2.6+Time system can't be used in MA3 ? ...

... (Was it the DirectX version?)

Jim Sachs · 02-09-2009, 01:07 PM

It was written by Will or Edgar, so it's incomprehensible to me. Had to start from scratch.

rps · 02-09-2009, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by Dale:

I understand that reasoning.

Of course, it means that you would have to code one more set of "pickers" with user interface, and presumably handle all of the added complexities of 31.12.1999, 1999/12/31, 12/31/1999, 31 DEC 99, December 31, 1999, etc. Not to mention the appropriate names (and single-character abbreviations) for the days, and names of the months (associating them with various choices of language). And explain that somewhere.

There would be significant complexity to doing that, rather than just reading the registry settings - or just saying "No, that's the only way MA3 works".

I just (quickly) counted 11 applications on my PC that display some form of day/time. I'm personally thankful that I don't have to change each of them.

There could be some advantage to being able to tell 50,000 people "It's Microsoft's fault - go ask them".

Why has this gotten so complicated? The original request (fairly reasonable, IMHO) was "would it be possible for MA3 to pick up the user's time/calendar settings?" [emphasis added]

There is nothing in that request that implies Jim needs to add an interface to modify Windows' time/calendar settings, nor is it implied that Jim has to worry about how easy/difficult it is for the average user to navigate those settings. The only issue is, IF a user has modified those settings, can MA3 reflect those settings? The settings are easy to pick up from the registry key, which should remain unchanged for Win2k - Win7; and if the registry key isn't there, then MA3 should fall back to 12-hour/Sunday first display

That's not a lot of coding to handle that request, and I don't think that anything else should be read into it.

~Ralph S.

Jim Sachs · 02-09-2009, 01:24 PM

Is the Registry Key the same in Vista?

Edgar · 02-09-2009, 02:07 PM

Any little request will mean a feature. Also means it will need documentation. Any feature will mean a test on all versions. Any bugs will mean all will complain.

Edit: There goes the clams from moving.

cjmaddy · 02-09-2009, 02:27 PM

I agree! ... So why do we need it? ... Can we have a vote?

Originally posted by cjmaddy:

.... I don't personally consider the style of clock/calendar display to be an important detail. - And I don't think you should waste your time on it!

I'm not bothered when I see a clock or a calendar in a bank or in a railway station, etc, I accept it for what it is. - I don't ask them to change its style!

..... Let's all move on! ....

A clock is a clock! ......... And this is supposed to be an Aquarium!

02-09-2009, 12:14 AM	#361
Yodelking yodeler Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Staffanstorp, Sweden Posts: 294	Originally posted by tormod: Would it be possible for the calendar machinery to pick up the settings from Windows i.e. if my clock is 24.00 hour use it and if the first day of the week is Monday use that ? This is a great suggestion! First day of the week in Sweden is Monday. /Peter Yodelking - För god att kolsyra!

02-09-2009, 01:22 AM	#362
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	Where are you guys seeing a way of changing the display of 24-hour mode and changing the start-day for the week in Windows? Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

02-09-2009, 01:56 AM	#364
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	Yes, I read your previous post, but how does the average user change these settings? I can't find an interface anywhere in XP. Also, I'm not sure if I want to assume that those Registry Keys will be valid for all operating systems. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

02-09-2009, 05:30 AM	#369
Yodelking yodeler Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Staffanstorp, Sweden Posts: 294	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: Yes, I read your previous post, but how does the average user change these settings? I can't find an interface anywhere in XP. Also, I'm not sure if I want to assume that those Registry Keys will be valid for all operating systems. If the registry isn't found on some systems you can view your "Sunday" as first day of the week... Yodelking - För god att kolsyra!

02-09-2009, 10:47 AM	#372
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	Wow, that interface for changing those settings is nearly as obscure as going into the Registry directly. I was hoping for something more along the lines of right-clicking the time readout. The reason this is imortant is that if get into an area which the average user is not familiar with, we suddenly become responsible for teaching them. If there are 50 million copies of a program out there, and just one person in 1000 is wondering why his clock is showing 24-hour time, that's 50,000 emails. So if I'm going to support other time/date modes, I think that the user will need to be able to set it from within the program, and I shouldn't get the settings from the Registry. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

02-09-2009, 01:30 AM	#363
tormod Registered Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 10	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: Where are you guys seeing a way of changing the display of 24-hour mode and changing the start-day for the week in Windows? In the regional options setting you set the clock using the time format My format is set to: HH:mm:ss. HH Means I want a 24 hour clock. But the start of week is locked to the country selected I believe. Time format... HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Control Panel\International\sTimeFormat The first day of the week is hidden here: HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Control Panel\International\iFirstDayOfWeek 0 = Monday, 6 = Sunday tormod

02-09-2009, 03:10 AM	#365
tormod Registered Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 10	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: Yes, I read your previous post, but how does the average user change these settings? I can't find an interface anywhere in XP. Also, I'm not sure if I want to assume that those Registry Keys will be valid for all operating systems. ControlPanel->Regional And Language->Regional Options->Customize->Time Will allow you to set the time format. This is normally set automatically when you set region and location. I believe the start of the week is controlled by the locale you have selected. I.e. Norway Googling the issue, shows that the only way to override it is via the registry. The start of week iFirstDayOfWeek key is present in Windows 2000, XP & Vista. tormod

02-09-2009, 04:20 AM	#368
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854

02-09-2009, 07:19 AM	#370
rctneil Registered Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 239	When will Ma3 with the clocks/calendar be available in the installer version?

02-09-2009, 07:46 AM	#371
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	From earlier today! - on the thread called, "MA3 - READ THIS FIRST!"... Originally posted by Jim Sachs: The "Official" Beta on SereneScreen.com defaults to the Statistics display being OFF. My "Beta-Betas" here will always default to ON. They also have a 14-day lifespan, while the official versions live forever. Every couple of weeks, if a test version is stable enough, it will become the official download.

02-09-2009, 11:44 AM	#373
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: Wow, that interface for changing those settings is nearly as obscure as going into the Registry directly. I was hoping for something more along the lines of right-clicking the time readout. The reason this is imortant is that if get into an area which the average user is not familiar with, we suddenly become responsible for teaching them. If there are 50 million copies of a program out there, and just one person in 1000 is wondering why his clock is showing 24-hour time, that's 50,000 emails. So if I'm going to support other time/date modes, I think that the user will need to be able to set it from within the program, and I shouldn't get the settings from the Registry. I understand that reasoning. Of course, it means that you would have to code one more set of "pickers" with user interface, and presumably handle all of the added complexities of 31.12.1999, 1999/12/31, 12/31/1999, 31 DEC 99, December 31, 1999, etc. Not to mention the appropriate names (and single-character abbreviations) for the days, and names of the months (associating them with various choices of language). And explain that somewhere. There would be significant complexity to doing that, rather than just reading the registry settings - or just saying "No, that's the only way MA3 works". I just (quickly) counted 11 applications on my PC that display some form of day/time. I'm personally thankful that I don't have to change each of them. There could be some advantage to being able to tell 50,000 people "It's Microsoft's fault - go ask them".

02-09-2009, 12:22 PM	#374
tormod Registered Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 10	Originally posted by Dale: There would be significant complexity to doing that, rather than just reading the registry settings - or just saying "No, that's the only way MA3 works". I just (quickly) counted 11 applications on my PC that display some form of day/time. I'm personally thankful that I don't have to change each of them. There could be some advantage to being able to tell 50,000 people "It's Microsoft's fault - go ask them". I agree with Dale, this is the localization interface in Microsoft Windows I think it makes sense to use them. What about date and time functions in the libraries are none of them locale aware ? tormod

02-09-2009, 12:48 PM	#375
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	Just for the record, my system's clock has always been set to display 12:00 hour time. - Beta9a is displaying it the same way. ie, It's now 6:48pm. Therefore, think of it this way, Jim.... If those 50,000 people are keen enough to have changed their display to or from 24 hour time, then they must already have found out how to do it. And if they wish to change it again for MA3... (And if my system is anything to go by, they won't need to!)... Then they will know what to do. I don't personally consider the style of clock/calendar display to be an important detail. - And I don't think you should waste your time on it! I'm not bothered when I see a clock or a calendar in a bank or in a railway station, etc, I accept it for what it is. - I don't ask them to change its style! ..... Let's all move on! ps, - Did you say there was a reason, why the MA2.6+Time system can't be used in MA3 ? ... ... (Was it the DirectX version?) Last edited by cjmaddy; 02-09-2009 at 03:34 PM.

02-09-2009, 01:07 PM	#376
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	It was written by Will or Edgar, so it's incomprehensible to me. Had to start from scratch. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

02-09-2009, 01:17 PM	#377
rps Registered Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 57	Originally posted by Dale: I understand that reasoning. Of course, it means that you would have to code one more set of "pickers" with user interface, and presumably handle all of the added complexities of 31.12.1999, 1999/12/31, 12/31/1999, 31 DEC 99, December 31, 1999, etc. Not to mention the appropriate names (and single-character abbreviations) for the days, and names of the months (associating them with various choices of language). And explain that somewhere. There would be significant complexity to doing that, rather than just reading the registry settings - or just saying "No, that's the only way MA3 works". I just (quickly) counted 11 applications on my PC that display some form of day/time. I'm personally thankful that I don't have to change each of them. There could be some advantage to being able to tell 50,000 people "It's Microsoft's fault - go ask them". Why has this gotten so complicated? The original request (fairly reasonable, IMHO) was "would it be possible for MA3 to pick up the user's time/calendar settings?" [emphasis added] There is nothing in that request that implies Jim needs to add an interface to modify Windows' time/calendar settings, nor is it implied that Jim has to worry about how easy/difficult it is for the average user to navigate those settings. The only issue is, IF a user has modified those settings, can MA3 reflect those settings? The settings are easy to pick up from the registry key, which should remain unchanged for Win2k - Win7; and if the registry key isn't there, then MA3 should fall back to 12-hour/Sunday first display That's not a lot of coding to handle that request, and I don't think that anything else should be read into it. ~Ralph S.

02-09-2009, 01:24 PM	#378
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	Is the Registry Key the same in Vista? Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

02-09-2009, 02:07 PM	#379
Edgar Prolific/SereneScreen Developer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Norwalk, CA Posts: 513	Any little request will mean a feature. Also means it will need documentation. Any feature will mean a test on all versions. Any bugs will mean all will complain. Edit: There goes the clams from moving. *Edgar Tolentino* Prolific Developer www.prolific.com www.LifeGlobe.com

02-09-2009, 02:27 PM	#380
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	I agree! ... So why do we need it? ... Can we have a vote? Originally posted by cjmaddy: .... I don't personally consider the style of clock/calendar display to be an important detail. - And I don't think you should waste your time on it! I'm not bothered when I see a clock or a calendar in a bank or in a railway station, etc, I accept it for what it is. - I don't ask them to change its style! ..... Let's all move on! .... A clock is a clock! ......... And this is supposed to be an Aquarium! Last edited by cjmaddy; 02-09-2009 at 03:30 PM.