Graphical Effects

Darkness2k · 03-21-2002, 08:16 PM

Hi,

I really enjoy this Aquarium... I just have a few questions about additions to the display.

Currently, Anti-Aliasing is not available for the screensaver (unless you can turn on some NVIDIA function to force anti aliasing in all 3D applications). However, a screensaver specific AA option would be handy so I do not have to keep turning on and off forced anti-aliasing.

In addition, will 32-bit colour be supported (other than when going into Windowed mode) so that transparencies could be used? (I.e. transparent 3D bubbles, instead of the graphical one, and true-24bit coloured fish... )

Will fish also be able to "disturb" the bubble pattern (i.e. if they swim through it, the bubbles are distorted and moved out of their original course?)

Just some ideas I thought about, I am sorry if I have repeated someone else.

Thanks for your time.

Jim Sachs · 03-22-2002, 12:03 AM

If there was some easy way of telling that AA was on, I might be able to disable it while the Aquarium was running, then re-enable it at exit. There may very well be an easy way, but not being a programmer, I don't know it. Of course, monkeying with the bits on the card usually breaks something else on other cards.

32 bit color gains nothing and doubles the memory use. Transparency works just as well in 16-bit. Look at the fish tails and fins to see a good example of alpha blending.

Yes, I do eventually plan to have the fish be able to deflect the bubbles.

Darkness2k · 03-22-2002, 04:47 AM

Does that mean that (seeing as Transparancies take up 8-bits) the textures are only of 8-bit colour (only 256 colours)?

just some guy · 03-22-2002, 09:54 AM

.

Jim Sachs · 03-22-2002, 10:57 AM

This is as good a place as any for technical issues. People can always skip any topics they don't like.

The internal calculations for blending, anti-aliasing, etc. are usually done in 32-bit (or higher) precision. After all the blending of channels is finished each pixel is converted to 16-bit for output to the monitor, with alternate pixels dithered to match whatever 32-bit color the pixel should actually have been. On a CRT at 1024x768 this is indisquishable from 32-bit color. On a Plasma display with 1024 physical pixels, you might be able to see the dithering with a magnifying glass, but I doubt it.

feldon34 · 03-22-2002, 12:01 PM

Inside: SereneScreen Aquarium
This is the SereneScreen Aquarium forum. We discuss the demo and registered versions of the screen saver, any features or fish suggestions we'd like to see in the future, hardware and software solutions and tweaks, and technical support.

Sounds like this topic fits within the purpose of this forum.

As for 32-bit, I have seen the Aquarium running natively in 32-bit. It looks identical.

Swede · 03-22-2002, 06:39 PM

Darkness2k wrote:
Currently, Anti-Aliasing is not available for the screensaver (unless you can turn on some NVIDIA function to force anti aliasing in all 3D applications). However, a screensaver specific AA option would be handy so I do not have to keep turning on and off forced anti-aliasing.

Hmm...

With my grafx card I can have individual settings for all 3d applications. I can assign for each program it's own setting...
Antialiasing and all that...

When I start any 3D program (often the Aquarium, yes!), the card (well, the computer) changes all the settings automatically.
When the program ends, the settings are restored.

I think this function was also available in my old card... (tnt2 ultra)

Is this uncommon for grafx cards, or is it just a function every card has and people just don't know it's there?!

Shinsa · 03-23-2002, 04:39 PM

Thats a card specific application. My Voodoo 5 did not come with that option, but I have used utilities that would do just that. But I think it was a launcher itself, not quite as handy as yours.

Darkness2k · 03-23-2002, 05:42 PM

I currently have a Geforce 3 Ti 500, and I used to have a Geforce 2 Ultra.... while my g/f has a Geforce 2 MX200.
None of these cards support seperate settings for each application from the display control panel by default.

As to the person that can set independant settings for each D3d or OpenGL application.. I believe the hercules 4500 uses the "Kyro" chipset which obviously gives completely different software to that of NVidia and its "Detonator" driver technology. I do not know what they offered with the "Riva TNT" because I used the Voodoo 3 3000 AGP at the time

As far as I can see, I can't see any "blending" on the fish, so I guess there is no point for 32-bit rendering. As soon as we get colour blending, then I suppose you can think about enhancing the display

Thanks for replying to me Mr. Sachs.
And thanks for bringing the world an amazing screensaver !

feldon34 · 03-23-2002, 06:13 PM

I think we're getting a little carried away on that signature image.

I've seen forums where every second signature is a 400x200 pixel picture of a BMW or other car.

Jim Sachs · 03-23-2002, 11:25 PM

Darkness2K - You don't see any blending? The tails of the fish are not semi-transparent on your machine?

Darkness2k · 03-24-2002, 06:30 AM

Sorry Jim, I meant "Colour Banding" where you can see strips of the same shade of colour etc (happens in 16bit etc)

I have Fish Fin transparancies

I dont see any colour banding, which is nice

And I've had this signature from being with "Neowin". And theres nothing wrong with expensive BMW's

(BMW M3 GTR STRAUSS 2002)
(oh and this sig is only 350*150!)

Jim Sachs · 03-24-2002, 12:22 PM

This illustrates my point. If the drivers are doing their job properly, there is no visual difference between 16 and 32-bit, including color banding. 16-bit is much more efficient in terms of speed and memory usage.

Darkness2k · 03-24-2002, 04:10 PM

I see what you mean Jim.

Wonder if this rumour about "64-bit colour" in DirectX 9 will be true or not.... I doubt it!

I am a beta tester, so when I get it, i'll let you know whats new!

feldon34 · 03-24-2002, 05:03 PM

You can't even see 32-bit color.

The human eye can see 7 million colors.

32 bit is 24 bits of color (16.7 million) and 8 bits of transparency (256 levels).

I guess Microsoft has caught the "who's got the biggest number" plague from Nintendo and Sony.

64-bit or 128-bit "graphics" is a joke. It's still 16 or 24 bit color. The difference is memory addressing capabilities.

Darkness2k · 03-24-2002, 06:14 PM

Yeah I know that.
As far as I know, the Nintendo 64 actually said it had 32 bit graphics... but I guess the CPU was running at 64bit.... while the PS2 is at 128bit.
But that aside, I doubt Microsoft would say it did 64 bit colour unless its 24bit colour, 8 bit transparancies and another 32bits of something else associated with colour and graphics (who knows with Microsoft anymore)

Its more likely that it was a fake rumour mind.

flipper · 03-25-2002, 09:54 PM

The problem's not the # of total colors, but the # of colors per color value (or hue, I forget which.) That's due to the 8bits max per R, G, & B that make up the 24bit color info. 16bits per R, G, & B would mean 65535 possible "shades" for a given color value. Smooth gradients

. Might as well throw 16bit alphas in as well since most chip "devices" work best on 32bit boundaries (for now

)

Darkness2k · 03-26-2002, 05:40 AM

Will it actually look any better for us as we have limited view on colour as it is? (as feldon said earlier)

32 (or 24bit) has always looked smooth to me :S

View Poll Results: What ideas did you like?
The AntiAliasing comment	1	3.13%
The Enhanced colour and bubble effects	9	28.13%
All of them	19	59.38%
None (Dont like them or dont think my graphics card could handle it)	3	9.38%
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

03-21-2002, 08:16 PM	#1
Darkness2k The Lord of Darkness Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Torquay, Devon, England Posts: 51	Graphical Effects Hi, I really enjoy this Aquarium... I just have a few questions about additions to the display. Currently, Anti-Aliasing is not available for the screensaver (unless you can turn on some NVIDIA function to force anti aliasing in all 3D applications). However, a screensaver specific AA option would be handy so I do not have to keep turning on and off forced anti-aliasing. In addition, will 32-bit colour be supported (other than when going into Windowed mode) so that transparencies could be used? (I.e. transparent 3D bubbles, instead of the graphical one, and true-24bit coloured fish... ) Will fish also be able to "disturb" the bubble pattern (i.e. if they swim through it, the bubbles are distorted and moved out of their original course?) Just some ideas I thought about, I am sorry if I have repeated someone else. Thanks for your time. Welcome to the Darkness http://www.darkness2k.dsl.pipex.com/Shared/TagMini.jpg (Visit it manually)

03-22-2002, 12:03 AM	#2
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,785	If there was some easy way of telling that AA was on, I might be able to disable it while the Aquarium was running, then re-enable it at exit. There may very well be an easy way, but not being a programmer, I don't know it. Of course, monkeying with the bits on the card usually breaks something else on other cards. 32 bit color gains nothing and doubles the memory use. Transparency works just as well in 16-bit. Look at the fish tails and fins to see a good example of alpha blending. Yes, I do eventually plan to have the fish be able to deflect the bubbles. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

03-22-2002, 04:47 AM	#3
Darkness2k The Lord of Darkness Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Torquay, Devon, England Posts: 51	Colour Depths Does that mean that (seeing as Transparancies take up 8-bits) the textures are only of 8-bit colour (only 256 colours)? Welcome to the Darkness http://www.darkness2k.dsl.pipex.com/Shared/TagMini.jpg (Visit it manually)

03-22-2002, 09:54 AM	#4
just some guy Banned Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: South Cakalaki Posts: 110	. . Last edited by just some guy; 05-11-2002 at 12:15 PM.

03-22-2002, 10:57 AM	#5
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,785	This is as good a place as any for technical issues. People can always skip any topics they don't like. The internal calculations for blending, anti-aliasing, etc. are usually done in 32-bit (or higher) precision. After all the blending of channels is finished each pixel is converted to 16-bit for output to the monitor, with alternate pixels dithered to match whatever 32-bit color the pixel should actually have been. On a CRT at 1024x768 this is indisquishable from 32-bit color. On a Plasma display with 1024 physical pixels, you might be able to see the dithering with a magnifying glass, but I doubt it. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium Last edited by Jim Sachs; 03-22-2002 at 01:06 PM.

03-22-2002, 12:01 PM	#6
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	Inside: SereneScreen Aquarium This is the SereneScreen Aquarium forum. We discuss the demo and registered versions of the screen saver, any features or fish suggestions we'd like to see in the future, hardware and software solutions and tweaks, and technical support. Sounds like this topic fits within the purpose of this forum. As for 32-bit, I have seen the Aquarium running natively in 32-bit. It looks identical. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

03-22-2002, 06:39 PM	#7
Swede Registered Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Karlskrona, Sweden Posts: 172	Darkness2k wrote: Currently, Anti-Aliasing is not available for the screensaver (unless you can turn on some NVIDIA function to force anti aliasing in all 3D applications). However, a screensaver specific AA option would be handy so I do not have to keep turning on and off forced anti-aliasing. Hmm... With my grafx card I can have individual settings for all 3d applications. I can assign for each program it's own setting... Antialiasing and all that... When I start any 3D program (often the Aquarium, yes!), the card (well, the computer) changes all the settings automatically. When the program ends, the settings are restored. I think this function was also available in my old card... (tnt2 ultra) Is this uncommon for grafx cards, or is it just a function every card has and people just don't know it's there?! 4x / F C Am G F C Am G // Chorus: 3x /F C Am G F C Am G// Last edited by Swede; 03-23-2002 at 04:34 AM.

03-23-2002, 04:39 PM	#8
Shinsa Registered Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Fayetteville, NC Posts: 407	Thats a card specific application. My Voodoo 5 did not come with that option, but I have used utilities that would do just that. But I think it was a launcher itself, not quite as handy as yours. Bob "When you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." _______________________________________________

03-23-2002, 05:42 PM	#9
Darkness2k The Lord of Darkness Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Torquay, Devon, England Posts: 51	I currently have a Geforce 3 Ti 500, and I used to have a Geforce 2 Ultra.... while my g/f has a Geforce 2 MX200. None of these cards support seperate settings for each application from the display control panel by default. As to the person that can set independant settings for each D3d or OpenGL application.. I believe the hercules 4500 uses the "Kyro" chipset which obviously gives completely different software to that of NVidia and its "Detonator" driver technology. I do not know what they offered with the "Riva TNT" because I used the Voodoo 3 3000 AGP at the time As far as I can see, I can't see any "blending" on the fish, so I guess there is no point for 32-bit rendering. As soon as we get colour blending, then I suppose you can think about enhancing the display Thanks for replying to me Mr. Sachs. And thanks for bringing the world an amazing screensaver ! Welcome to the Darkness http://www.darkness2k.dsl.pipex.com/Shared/TagMini.jpg (Visit it manually) Last edited by feldon34; 03-23-2002 at 06:13 PM.

03-23-2002, 06:13 PM	#10
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	I think we're getting a little carried away on that signature image. I've seen forums where every second signature is a 400x200 pixel picture of a BMW or other car. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

03-23-2002, 11:25 PM	#11
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,785	Darkness2K - You don't see any blending? The tails of the fish are not semi-transparent on your machine? Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

03-24-2002, 06:30 AM	#12
Darkness2k The Lord of Darkness Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Torquay, Devon, England Posts: 51	Sorry Jim, I meant "Colour Banding" where you can see strips of the same shade of colour etc (happens in 16bit etc) I have Fish Fin transparancies I dont see any colour banding, which is nice And I've had this signature from being with "Neowin". And theres nothing wrong with expensive BMW's (BMW M3 GTR STRAUSS 2002) (oh and this sig is only 350*150!) Welcome to the Darkness http://www.darkness2k.dsl.pipex.com/Shared/TagMini.jpg (Visit it manually)

03-24-2002, 12:22 PM	#13
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,785	This illustrates my point. If the drivers are doing their job properly, there is no visual difference between 16 and 32-bit, including color banding. 16-bit is much more efficient in terms of speed and memory usage. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

03-24-2002, 04:10 PM	#14
Darkness2k The Lord of Darkness Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Torquay, Devon, England Posts: 51	I see what you mean Jim. Wonder if this rumour about "64-bit colour" in DirectX 9 will be true or not.... I doubt it! I am a beta tester, so when I get it, i'll let you know whats new! Welcome to the Darkness http://www.darkness2k.dsl.pipex.com/Shared/TagMini.jpg (Visit it manually)

03-24-2002, 05:03 PM	#15
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	You can't even see 32-bit color. The human eye can see 7 million colors. 32 bit is 24 bits of color (16.7 million) and 8 bits of transparency (256 levels). I guess Microsoft has caught the "who's got the biggest number" plague from Nintendo and Sony. 64-bit or 128-bit "graphics" is a joke. It's still 16 or 24 bit color. The difference is memory addressing capabilities. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

03-24-2002, 06:14 PM	#16
Darkness2k The Lord of Darkness Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Torquay, Devon, England Posts: 51	Yeah I know that. As far as I know, the Nintendo 64 actually said it had 32 bit graphics... but I guess the CPU was running at 64bit.... while the PS2 is at 128bit. But that aside, I doubt Microsoft would say it did 64 bit colour unless its 24bit colour, 8 bit transparancies and another 32bits of something else associated with colour and graphics (who knows with Microsoft anymore) Its more likely that it was a fake rumour mind. Welcome to the Darkness http://www.darkness2k.dsl.pipex.com/Shared/TagMini.jpg (Visit it manually)

03-25-2002, 09:54 PM	#17
flipper Registered Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 60	The problem's not the # of total colors, but the # of colors per color value (or hue, I forget which.) That's due to the 8bits max per R, G, & B that make up the 24bit color info. 16bits per R, G, & B would mean 65535 possible "shades" for a given color value. Smooth gradients . Might as well throw 16bit alphas in as well since most chip "devices" work best on 32bit boundaries (for now )

03-26-2002, 05:40 AM	#18
Darkness2k The Lord of Darkness Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Torquay, Devon, England Posts: 51	Will it actually look any better for us as we have limited view on colour as it is? (as feldon said earlier) 32 (or 24bit) has always looked smooth to me :S Welcome to the Darkness http://www.darkness2k.dsl.pipex.com/Shared/TagMini.jpg (Visit it manually)