Curious, whats the point of 3D

broderp · 03-10-2011, 03:57 PM

I know JIm has been hard at work on this 3D blue ray stuff. I'm just curious as to what benifit this will have? I can't imagine people sitting around thier monitors or tv with those glasses on to watch a screen saver.

Or is it a marketing thing, to get Samsung to include it with 3D TVs as eye candy for adversize for screen saver sales?

Just curious.

Jim Sachs · 03-10-2011, 05:43 PM

Exactly.

broderp · 03-10-2011, 10:05 PM

Well I hope to see this on every 3D Samsung TV at Best Buy someday soon.

Jim Sachs · 03-10-2011, 10:20 PM

I got bogged down with the seemingly endless choices of screen format / compression schemes / bitrates. Without a system to actually try this out on, it seems hopeless.

feldon34 · 03-12-2011, 09:16 PM

The full Blu-Ray standard is 1080p. That's 1920 x 1080 with 30 progressive frames per second.

The 'system to try it out on' is a copy of PowerDVD.

Jim Sachs · 03-12-2011, 09:36 PM

Ah, if only it were simply Blu-Ray standard. 3D is a whole different animal.

feldon34 · 03-13-2011, 10:50 AM

THE SPECIFICATION for 3D Blu-ray has been finalised by the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) so it shouldn't be long until we can all fork out another wodge of cash for new kit if we want to buy into 3D.

Jumping on the 3D bandwagon, the BDA has decided we need our headaches to be created in full 1080p high definition and is attempting to thwart the traditional format war by coming out with a standardised spec as quickly as possible.

The specification uses the Multiview Video Coding (MVC) codec, an extension to the ITU-T H.264 Advanced Video Coding (AVC) codec currently supported by all Blu-ray Disc players. MPEG4-MVC compresses both left and right eye views with a typical 50 per cent overhead compared to equivalent 2D content. It also provides details on other features such as 3D menu navigation and subtitles.

More...

The BDA has said, "The Blu-ray 3D specification calls for encoding 3D video using the "Stereo High" profile defined by Multiview Video Coding (MVC), an extension to the ITU-T H.264 Advanced Video Coding (AVC) codec currently supported by all Blu-ray Disc players. MPEG4-MVC compresses both left and right eye views with a typical 50% overhead compared to equivalent 2D content, and can provide full 1080p resolution backward compatibility with current 2D Blu-ray Disc players."[155] This means the MVC (3D) stream is backward compatible with H.264/AVC (2D) stream, allowing older 2D devices and software to decode stereoscopic video streams, ignoring additional information for the second view.

More...

Where are you reading that there is a choice of codec, bitrate, refresh rate, or resolution? My read of the above is there is one codec, one bitrate, and one resolution. Did something change?

jleslie · 03-13-2011, 12:38 PM

I'd disagree on the 1920x1080 @ 30fps, I believe the allowable resolutions and frame rates for BD-3D are:

1920×1080 @ 23.976 fps progressive
1280×720 @ 59.94 fps progressive
1280×720 @ 50 fps progressive

Plus the only supported codec is MVC. For more info the buzz-phrase to look for is "Profile 5".

John

Jim Sachs · 03-13-2011, 02:42 PM

John's right, those three possibilities represent the first of many choices you have to make. There are many other choices, such as side-by-side, top-bottom, or interleaved format.

Here's an immediate obstacle: I can't capture frames at 1920x1080 from the Aquarium, because that's not one of the choices from my video card.

So let's say I wanted to try 1280x720, side-by-side. That brings up two more choices:
1. Set the Aquarium to play in 1280x720, and capture frames directly.
2. Set the Aquarium to play in a higher resolution, and post-process the frames down to a size that BluRay can handle.

Which would look better, with less artifacting? No way of telling without a 3DTV to try it on. In fact, with all the caveats from the compression software, there's no way to predict if your 3D disk will play AT ALL on a Samsung system, without actually trying it.

I was able to get a free MVC compression encoder, but it's a command-line program with so many parameters that I got too tired of scrolling to even see them all.

jleslie · 03-13-2011, 03:32 PM

I believe Cinema Craft, Sony, Sonic Solutions and NetBlender have MVC codecs, but I don't know anything about them, other than they're unlikely to be free...

It did occur that if you can scale down from a higher resolution the smoothing effect of a scaler like Lanczos might help rather than hinder.

Another option would be to letter-box it or crop in some other way.

Anyway, rather you than me... good luck!

P.S. I'd either buy another video card or see what it gives you when plugged into a TV's HDMI input. Otherwise get some hacked drivers, which may well do that mode. (Tell me exactly what your card is and I'll see what I an do.)

Jim Sachs · 03-13-2011, 03:58 PM

My video card is a GeForce 9800GT. I just realized that the inability to match resolutions is probably due to the Samsung 3D monitor. The max resolution choice within the Aquarium on this system is 1680x1050x32.

jleslie · 03-13-2011, 04:38 PM

If that's the max resolution you'll find 3D at 1920x1080 tough to say the least... what model is the monitor?

Jim Sachs · 03-13-2011, 05:02 PM

It's Samsung's only 3D monitor, the Syncmaster 2233RZ.

jleslie · 03-14-2011, 01:51 AM

Okay, so I see the problem. Also as it doesn't have an HDMI it presumably won't down-scale 1920x1080 content (as it might do if it had one).

I don't have an instant idea that would definitely work. Well, other than going with one of the lower resolutions. Sorry.

Jim Sachs · 03-14-2011, 02:02 AM

Yes, that's been the problem. I'm not averse to just trying a million different combinations (that's how I develped the Aquarium in the first place), but it would mean finding a sympathetic salesperson at Best Buy who would let me use the floor-model Samsung equipment. Even then, it would mean a 30-mile round-trip for each experiment.

David Black · 10-17-2011, 08:11 PM

Hi Jim,

Register to post this in case it is helpful...

Since this is an old thread you may have already overcome the resolution issue, if not and you have a computer with enough resources, have you considered computer virtualization?

A free program called "Player" can be downloaded from VMware, once installed you can set up a virtual computer, very easy to do, (an Operating System disc is required) once up and running, screen resolutions higher than your monitor can actually display are available, the "Player" interface has scroll bars.

As long as you have the correct resolution, would this allow you to output your frames for Blu-ray encoding?

I just checked and 1920×1080 resolution is available.

Hope this information is helpful and saves you having to travel the 30 miles for testing.

If you need more information please ask.

David

PS: Are there plans for the new eel to have its own tick box on the settings screen, so it can be disabled if required? Thank you for all your hard work and amazing Amiga art (been a long time fan)

Jim Sachs · 10-18-2011, 01:31 PM

Outputting the frames is no problem, it's making a 3D Blu-Ray disk that is holding me up. The disk must play on any 3D Blu-Ray player.

AegisPrime · 11-02-2011, 09:14 AM

Hi Jim - I might be able to help you with this - I can edit and master 3D Blu-Rays - contact me at andrew "at" survivorfilms "dot" com and we can talk about it

Jim Sachs · 11-02-2011, 10:03 AM

Thanks, Andrew - I was hoping for something a little more close-to-home (like on my own computer)

But I did check out survivorfilms.com. Looks like you guys are doing some interesting ultra-low-budget indy stuff.

AegisPrime · 11-02-2011, 10:49 AM

Why thank you

OK, if there's anything I can do to help please let me know. And by the way, thank you for being a huge inspiration to me ever since I first saw 'Defender of the Crown' running on my friends A1000 - you and Ron Thornton (Babylon 5) inspired me to get into 2D then 3D graphics

03-10-2011, 03:57 PM	#1
broderp Registered Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Ohio Posts: 4	Curious, whats the point of 3D I know JIm has been hard at work on this 3D blue ray stuff. I'm just curious as to what benifit this will have? I can't imagine people sitting around thier monitors or tv with those glasses on to watch a screen saver. Or is it a marketing thing, to get Samsung to include it with 3D TVs as eye candy for adversize for screen saver sales? Just curious.

03-10-2011, 05:43 PM	#2
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	Exactly. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

03-10-2011, 10:20 PM	#4
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	I got bogged down with the seemingly endless choices of screen format / compression schemes / bitrates. Without a system to actually try this out on, it seems hopeless. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

03-12-2011, 09:16 PM	#5
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	The full Blu-Ray standard is 1080p. That's 1920 x 1080 with 30 progressive frames per second. The 'system to try it out on' is a copy of PowerDVD. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

03-12-2011, 09:36 PM	#6
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	Ah, if only it were simply Blu-Ray standard. 3D is a whole different animal. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

03-10-2011, 10:05 PM	#3
broderp Registered Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Ohio Posts: 4	Well I hope to see this on every 3D Samsung TV at Best Buy someday soon.

03-13-2011, 10:50 AM	#7
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	THE SPECIFICATION for 3D Blu-ray has been finalised by the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) so it shouldn't be long until we can all fork out another wodge of cash for new kit if we want to buy into 3D. Jumping on the 3D bandwagon, the BDA has decided we need our headaches to be created in full 1080p high definition and is attempting to thwart the traditional format war by coming out with a standardised spec as quickly as possible. The specification uses the Multiview Video Coding (MVC) codec, an extension to the ITU-T H.264 Advanced Video Coding (AVC) codec currently supported by all Blu-ray Disc players. MPEG4-MVC compresses both left and right eye views with a typical 50 per cent overhead compared to equivalent 2D content. It also provides details on other features such as 3D menu navigation and subtitles. More... The BDA has said, "The Blu-ray 3D specification calls for encoding 3D video using the "Stereo High" profile defined by Multiview Video Coding (MVC), an extension to the ITU-T H.264 Advanced Video Coding (AVC) codec currently supported by all Blu-ray Disc players. MPEG4-MVC compresses both left and right eye views with a typical 50% overhead compared to equivalent 2D content, and can provide full 1080p resolution backward compatibility with current 2D Blu-ray Disc players."[155] This means the MVC (3D) stream is backward compatible with H.264/AVC (2D) stream, allowing older 2D devices and software to decode stereoscopic video streams, ignoring additional information for the second view. More... Where are you reading that there is a choice of codec, bitrate, refresh rate, or resolution? My read of the above is there is one codec, one bitrate, and one resolution. Did something change? "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

03-13-2011, 12:38 PM	#8
jleslie Engineer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,279	I'd disagree on the 1920x1080 @ 30fps, I believe the allowable resolutions and frame rates for BD-3D are: 1920×1080 @ 23.976 fps progressive 1280×720 @ 59.94 fps progressive 1280×720 @ 50 fps progressive Plus the only supported codec is MVC. For more info the buzz-phrase to look for is "Profile 5". John

03-13-2011, 02:42 PM	#9
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	John's right, those three possibilities represent the first of many choices you have to make. There are many other choices, such as side-by-side, top-bottom, or interleaved format. Here's an immediate obstacle: I can't capture frames at 1920x1080 from the Aquarium, because that's not one of the choices from my video card. So let's say I wanted to try 1280x720, side-by-side. That brings up two more choices: 1. Set the Aquarium to play in 1280x720, and capture frames directly. 2. Set the Aquarium to play in a higher resolution, and post-process the frames down to a size that BluRay can handle. Which would look better, with less artifacting? No way of telling without a 3DTV to try it on. In fact, with all the caveats from the compression software, there's no way to predict if your 3D disk will play AT ALL on a Samsung system, without actually trying it. I was able to get a free MVC compression encoder, but it's a command-line program with so many parameters that I got too tired of scrolling to even see them all. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

03-13-2011, 03:32 PM	#10
jleslie Engineer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,279	I believe Cinema Craft, Sony, Sonic Solutions and NetBlender have MVC codecs, but I don't know anything about them, other than they're unlikely to be free... It did occur that if you can scale down from a higher resolution the smoothing effect of a scaler like Lanczos might help rather than hinder. Another option would be to letter-box it or crop in some other way. Anyway, rather you than me... good luck! P.S. I'd either buy another video card or see what it gives you when plugged into a TV's HDMI input. Otherwise get some hacked drivers, which may well do that mode. (Tell me exactly what your card is and I'll see what I an do.)

03-13-2011, 03:58 PM	#11
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	My video card is a GeForce 9800GT. I just realized that the inability to match resolutions is probably due to the Samsung 3D monitor. The max resolution choice within the Aquarium on this system is 1680x1050x32. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

03-13-2011, 04:38 PM	#12
jleslie Engineer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,279	If that's the max resolution you'll find 3D at 1920x1080 tough to say the least... what model is the monitor?

03-13-2011, 05:02 PM	#13
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	It's Samsung's only 3D monitor, the Syncmaster 2233RZ. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

03-14-2011, 01:51 AM	#14
jleslie Engineer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,279	Okay, so I see the problem. Also as it doesn't have an HDMI it presumably won't down-scale 1920x1080 content (as it might do if it had one). I don't have an instant idea that would definitely work. Well, other than going with one of the lower resolutions. Sorry.

03-14-2011, 02:02 AM	#15
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	Yes, that's been the problem. I'm not averse to just trying a million different combinations (that's how I develped the Aquarium in the first place), but it would mean finding a sympathetic salesperson at Best Buy who would let me use the floor-model Samsung equipment. Even then, it would mean a 30-mile round-trip for each experiment. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

10-17-2011, 08:11 PM	#16
David Black Registered User Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: UK Posts: 1	Hi Jim, Register to post this in case it is helpful... Since this is an old thread you may have already overcome the resolution issue, if not and you have a computer with enough resources, have you considered computer virtualization? A free program called "Player" can be downloaded from VMware, once installed you can set up a virtual computer, very easy to do, (an Operating System disc is required) once up and running, screen resolutions higher than your monitor can actually display are available, the "Player" interface has scroll bars. As long as you have the correct resolution, would this allow you to output your frames for Blu-ray encoding? I just checked and 1920×1080 resolution is available. Hope this information is helpful and saves you having to travel the 30 miles for testing. If you need more information please ask. David PS: Are there plans for the new eel to have its own tick box on the settings screen, so it can be disabled if required? Thank you for all your hard work and amazing Amiga art (been a long time fan)

10-18-2011, 01:31 PM	#17
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	Outputting the frames is no problem, it's making a 3D Blu-Ray disk that is holding me up. The disk must play on any 3D Blu-Ray player. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

11-02-2011, 09:14 AM	#18
AegisPrime Registered Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: London Posts: 2	Hi Jim - I might be able to help you with this - I can edit and master 3D Blu-Rays - contact me at andrew "at" survivorfilms "dot" com and we can talk about it

11-02-2011, 10:03 AM	#19
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	Thanks, Andrew - I was hoping for something a little more close-to-home (like on my own computer) But I did check out survivorfilms.com. Looks like you guys are doing some interesting ultra-low-budget indy stuff. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

11-02-2011, 10:49 AM	#20
AegisPrime Registered Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: London Posts: 2	Why thank you OK, if there's anything I can do to help please let me know. And by the way, thank you for being a huge inspiration to me ever since I first saw 'Defender of the Crown' running on my friends A1000 - you and Ron Thornton (Babylon 5) inspired me to get into 2D then 3D graphics