Marine Aquarium 3 Rumors and Speculation - Page 18

ESHIREY · 12-11-2006, 02:36 PM

That's good news.

Simple Steve · 12-11-2006, 04:13 PM

Hey Jim, I was just wondering if you could say what the most unusual fish will be in MA3? Also, can you say how detailed you plan to get with behavior? Not just the normal kind, but the kind you see sometimes that makes you think that maybe the fish went a little too deep.

P.S.
Congrats on the cave. I bet that's a load off your mind.

Jim Sachs · 12-12-2006, 01:52 AM

At first MA3 will have the same fish as MA2. Additions will be done through Creature Packs, which will come later. I expect the most difficult creature to be the octopus, which is why I'm saving it for last. The fish behavior will be as detailed as I can reasonably make it in a limited amount of time. Typical actions would include schooling, chasing, darting, nibbling at corals, etc.

Highlander · 12-12-2006, 02:02 AM

looks great

Wizwad · 12-12-2006, 07:25 AM

Great news on the cave front! Thanks Jim.

Just going back to the textures again, what does a texture actually look like before it gets wrapped around a fish? I thought we might have covered that in the past, but my searches aren't turning up anything informative.

feldon34 · 12-12-2006, 08:28 AM

I don't know that a raw texture has ever been posted here before. I would want Jim's permission first.

As I mentioned before, most of the fish textures are "straight-on". A few are diagonal which allows for the side fins to be more detailed and as a side benefit gives the fish body texture a higher resolution as well. The clearfin lionfish texture is gigantic compared to the other fish.

Jim Sachs · 12-12-2006, 11:37 AM

Here's a typical fish texture - In this case the Koran Angel. The bitmap and alpha channel would be combined into one DDS file in the program.

Simple Steve · 12-14-2006, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

Here's a typical fish texture - In this case the Koran Angel. The bitmap and alpha channel would be combined into one DDS file in the program.

Stupid question, Jim-- is that something you have to draw by hand or in the computer, or are there such things as fish templates that you add color to? Sorry if that's a dumb question, it just fascinates me that it's actually possible to make such a realistic screensaver. I wish I had that kind of skill to make one-- or like the ones 3planesoft makes. It just amazes me.

Boy, there's a great idea for a program, eh? Make your own fish screensaver. That's gonna make someone a fistful of cash someday.

Jim Sachs · 12-15-2006, 02:18 AM

Hand drawing the textures makes fish that look hand-drawn. Photography is vital. There's no real fish template, but I can load one of my earlier models into Lightwave, change the shape, pin a new texture on it, and save it as a new fish.

Vish · 12-16-2006, 02:11 AM

Jim

Since we are at it, what are alpha channels...

jleslie · 12-16-2006, 03:45 AM

The Alpha channel is for Transparency - how much of the background to show through the image - a common use would be for a fin, where you want to be able to see through it a bit.

Jim Sachs · 12-16-2006, 11:50 AM

Yes, transparency is the most common use of an Alpha channel -- anything that's white shows 100% texture image, black is 100% background image, shades of gray will mix a proportional amount of the two.

It's very easy to use transparency, and I've always used it for the "clear" parts of the fish, the fins of my saltwater fish and various body parts of my freshwater fish. But the extra realism I'm going for in 3.0 has brought up a problem: When you look "through" the fin of an actual fish, you can't really see a clear image of what's on the other side. It's blurry, like frosted glass. Using shaders, it's possible to achieve this effect. Instead of combining each pixel with the one directly under it, the program would average each pixel with several underneath it. Some XP programs do this when windows overlap each other, but virtually no one notices it.

That's my problem -- is it worth the development time and clock-cycle overhead to do this, or would it be lost on 99% of the people viewing it?

cjmaddy · 12-16-2006, 12:02 PM

You could always post us an example for us to comment on!

..... My guess is that it would be worth it, ... but then who besides me likes the n key?

Do you want to impress the masses? ... Or go for quality? ... That is the question.

feldon34 · 12-16-2006, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

That's my problem -- is it worth the development time and clock-cycle overhead to do this, or would it be lost on 99% of the people viewing it?

If you do it on just the fins? No.

If you can add translucency and light refraction to the entire body of fish like the Yellow Tang, Flame Angel, Royal Gramma, etc., then it's absolutely worth it.

Tiny Turtle · 12-16-2006, 02:32 PM

I'm with the Koran of Huston...

Wizwad · 12-16-2006, 08:40 PM

I'm with the Koran of Huston...

Me too!

And thanks for the info above - For some reason I was imagining an image which was much more warped than the example you posted turned out to be. I guess I was imagining both sides of a fish as a single texture (minus eyes and pectoral fins, obviously). Um, duh!

Jim Sachs · 12-16-2006, 08:45 PM

That's the advantage in mapping a thin object with bilateral symmetry -- almost no warping of the texture.

Highlander · 01-04-2007, 12:39 AM

Anyone alive in 2007 ?

just checking

Tiny Turtle · 01-04-2007, 09:43 AM

Whaddaya mean, Dirk?

Jim Sachs · 01-04-2007, 10:56 AM

I just got back from Chicago. Got some good source material from the Shedd Aquarium. I borrowed my daughter's new Panasonic Lumix camera, and it really made a difference in grabbing quick shots between the crowds. I just left it on Automatic, and let the camera do all the thinking.

12-11-2006, 02:36 PM	#341
ESHIREY Smilie Dragon Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lebanon, PA Posts: 4,725	That's good news. Thank you for taking the time to read this.

12-12-2006, 01:52 AM	#343
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,790	At first MA3 will have the same fish as MA2. Additions will be done through Creature Packs, which will come later. I expect the most difficult creature to be the octopus, which is why I'm saving it for last. The fish behavior will be as detailed as I can reasonably make it in a limited amount of time. Typical actions would include schooling, chasing, darting, nibbling at corals, etc. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

12-12-2006, 02:02 AM	#344
Highlander Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Antwerp - Belgium Posts: 87	looks great Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups !

12-12-2006, 07:25 AM	#345
Wizwad Only me... Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 2,584	Great news on the cave front! Thanks Jim. Just going back to the textures again, what does a texture actually look like before it gets wrapped around a fish? I thought we might have covered that in the past, but my searches aren't turning up anything informative. Mark ----------- Intel i7 12700K \| Aorus Z690 Pro \| Corsair DDR5 5600 32GB \| Asus Dual RTX3060ti 6GB v2 Mini OC \| Corsair RM850 Gold PSU \| 1TB NVMe M.2 WD Black SN850 \| 4TB Seagate BarraCuda HDD \| Corsair Airflow 5000D Case \| HP 32QHD 4K Monitor \| Windows 11 x64 Professional

12-12-2006, 08:28 AM	#346
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	I don't know that a raw texture has ever been posted here before. I would want Jim's permission first. As I mentioned before, most of the fish textures are "straight-on". A few are diagonal which allows for the side fins to be more detailed and as a side benefit gives the fish body texture a higher resolution as well. The clearfin lionfish texture is gigantic compared to the other fish. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

12-11-2006, 04:13 PM	#342
Simple Steve Registered Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 25	Hey Jim, I was just wondering if you could say what the most unusual fish will be in MA3? Also, can you say how detailed you plan to get with behavior? Not just the normal kind, but the kind you see sometimes that makes you think that maybe the fish went a little too deep. P.S. Congrats on the cave. I bet that's a load off your mind.

12-14-2006, 06:25 PM	#348
Simple Steve Registered Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 25	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: Here's a typical fish texture - In this case the Koran Angel. The bitmap and alpha channel would be combined into one DDS file in the program. Stupid question, Jim-- is that something you have to draw by hand or in the computer, or are there such things as fish templates that you add color to? Sorry if that's a dumb question, it just fascinates me that it's actually possible to make such a realistic screensaver. I wish I had that kind of skill to make one-- or like the ones 3planesoft makes. It just amazes me. Boy, there's a great idea for a program, eh? Make your own fish screensaver. That's gonna make someone a fistful of cash someday.

12-15-2006, 02:18 AM	#349
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,790	Hand drawing the textures makes fish that look hand-drawn. Photography is vital. There's no real fish template, but I can load one of my earlier models into Lightwave, change the shape, pin a new texture on it, and save it as a new fish. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

12-16-2006, 02:11 AM	#350
Vish Registered Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: California Posts: 103	Jim Since we are at it, what are alpha channels... --Vish

12-16-2006, 03:45 AM	#351
jleslie Engineer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,279	The Alpha channel is for Transparency - how much of the background to show through the image - a common use would be for a fin, where you want to be able to see through it a bit.

12-16-2006, 11:50 AM	#352
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,790	Yes, transparency is the most common use of an Alpha channel -- anything that's white shows 100% texture image, black is 100% background image, shades of gray will mix a proportional amount of the two. It's very easy to use transparency, and I've always used it for the "clear" parts of the fish, the fins of my saltwater fish and various body parts of my freshwater fish. But the extra realism I'm going for in 3.0 has brought up a problem: When you look "through" the fin of an actual fish, you can't really see a clear image of what's on the other side. It's blurry, like frosted glass. Using shaders, it's possible to achieve this effect. Instead of combining each pixel with the one directly under it, the program would average each pixel with several underneath it. Some XP programs do this when windows overlap each other, but virtually no one notices it. That's my problem -- is it worth the development time and clock-cycle overhead to do this, or would it be lost on 99% of the people viewing it? Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

12-16-2006, 12:02 PM	#353
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	You could always post us an example for us to comment on! ..... My guess is that it would be worth it, ... but then who besides me likes the n key? Do you want to impress the masses? ... Or go for quality? ... That is the question.

12-16-2006, 12:21 PM	#354
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: That's my problem -- is it worth the development time and clock-cycle overhead to do this, or would it be lost on 99% of the people viewing it? If you do it on just the fins? No. If you can add translucency and light refraction to the entire body of fish like the Yellow Tang, Flame Angel, Royal Gramma, etc., then it's absolutely worth it. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

12-16-2006, 02:32 PM	#355
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	I'm with the Koran of Huston... Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

12-16-2006, 08:40 PM	#356
Wizwad Only me... Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 2,584	I'm with the Koran of Huston... Me too! And thanks for the info above - For some reason I was imagining an image which was much more warped than the example you posted turned out to be. I guess I was imagining both sides of a fish as a single texture (minus eyes and pectoral fins, obviously). Um, duh! Mark ----------- Intel i7 12700K \| Aorus Z690 Pro \| Corsair DDR5 5600 32GB \| Asus Dual RTX3060ti 6GB v2 Mini OC \| Corsair RM850 Gold PSU \| 1TB NVMe M.2 WD Black SN850 \| 4TB Seagate BarraCuda HDD \| Corsair Airflow 5000D Case \| HP 32QHD 4K Monitor \| Windows 11 x64 Professional

12-16-2006, 08:45 PM	#357
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,790	That's the advantage in mapping a thin object with bilateral symmetry -- almost no warping of the texture. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

01-04-2007, 12:39 AM	#358
Highlander Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Antwerp - Belgium Posts: 87	Anyone alive in 2007 ? Anyone alive in 2007 ? just checking Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups !

01-04-2007, 09:43 AM	#359
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Whaddaya mean, Dirk? Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

01-04-2007, 10:56 AM	#360
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,790	I just got back from Chicago. Got some good source material from the Shedd Aquarium. I borrowed my daughter's new Panasonic Lumix camera, and it really made a difference in grabbing quick shots between the crowds. I just left it on Automatic, and let the camera do all the thinking. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium