Beta 11m discussion - Page 2

Nicki · 06-12-2010, 07:22 PM

Oh, I should say that pressing CTRL-R brings back the audio distortion but I completely understand Jim's explanation about the CPU cycles, so this is absolutely okay.

Without any limits the program has 100% access. This seems to fit the definition and for some people it will be very important even if there are very good reasons never to exceed the monitor refresh rate.

Dale · 06-12-2010, 07:24 PM

Originally posted by Nicki:

Okay Dale, I'm getting some weird stuff..

Don't ask me! I just suggested something to try.

Jim Sachs · 06-12-2010, 07:26 PM

I don't know about the first part of that, but the not-resetting-until-arrow-key is something I can fix.

Nicki · 06-12-2010, 07:39 PM

Project for you then Dale

Bring up the program settings box and leave it there. Try unchecking/checking some of the boxes and see if it makes the up/down arrows affect anything they shouldn't.

It's a bit random so you'll have to play about. Keep fiddling for a minute or two. Same boxes, different boxes.

Dale · 06-12-2010, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by Nicki:

Project for you then Dale

Bring up the program settings box and leave it there. Try unchecking/checking some of the boxes and see if it makes the up/down arrows affect anything they shouldn't.

It's a bit random so you'll have to play about. Keep fiddling for a minute or two. Same boxes, different boxes.

\

Yep. Got it in one (example).

Start MA3
Press CTRL-R
Bring up Program Settings (spacebar, click)
Press up or down arrow, note that it toggles "Cancel" and "OK" buttons [That's one little effect - big effect follows]
Check the top box - Exit on Mouse Move.
Press the down arrow - TWICE and then hold it. Note what happens.
Press the up arrow.
Etc.

General description: when you check a box, that "line" gets focus. Then pressing the down-arrow moves down a line - until you reach a line with a slider. Then moves over to the slider, and the arrow keys affect the slider position. [Up arrow for right, and down arrow for left). UNchecking a box does the same thing, of course.

Added footnote: Same problem with the left/right arrow keys, too. We just never noticed it before????

JohnWho · 06-12-2010, 07:56 PM

Interesting.

Note also that the left/right arrows work within the "Pan Speed" and "Limit Frame Rate" sliders, but do not work within the two volume sliders.

JohnWho · 06-12-2010, 08:00 PM

Left/Right work with "clock/logo" color picker and the background color sliders too,

but, do not work with Volume slider in the "Music Playlist" screen or the above mentioned sliders.

Ralph · 06-12-2010, 08:00 PM

I don't think that is a bug... how else to move to the next next.. The tab key does it in some programs but the arrow keys are just fine IMO.
As to the arrow keys adjusting the volume.. a needless function IMO... the "M" key will mute and the volume knob on my speakers work just fine.

JohnWho · 06-12-2010, 08:02 PM

Ralph, the up/down arrows do not always move one to the next next.

Sometimes they hang up on the sliders, as mentioned.

Dale · 06-12-2010, 08:03 PM

Originally posted by JohnWho:

Interesting.

Note also that the left/right arrows work within the "Pan Speed" and "Limit Frame Rate" sliders, but do not work within the two volume sliders.

Hmmm - they "work" for me in the volume sliders. Just very slowly.

By the way - CTRL-R in my initial instructions isn't necessary, of course. I just wanted to start with "known" conditions.

JohnWho · 06-12-2010, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by Dale:

Hmmm - they "work" for me in the volume sliders. Just very slowly.

I stand corrected.

Although, "very slowly" is an understatement.

Dale · 06-12-2010, 08:18 PM

Originally posted by JohnWho:

Ralph, the up/down arrows do not always move one to the next next.

Sometimes they hang up on the sliders, as mentioned.

The arrow keys toggle among 3 of the 9 buttons on the main settings panel.

The arrow keys adjust the BLUE color on one of the Background Colors.

And surprisingly, are NOT capable of adjusting the volume slider on the Music Settings panel.

I agree with Nicki that it's "weird". It also seems (to me) to be inconsistent from panel to panel. Only Jim can tell us if it's working as intended, or what.

JohnWho · 06-12-2010, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by Dale:

The arrow keys adjust the BLUE color on one of the Background Colors.

Works on the RED and GREEN too, for me.

Dale · 06-12-2010, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by JohnWho:

Works on the RED and GREEN too, for me.

Yes, if you first mouse-click on the red or green slider.

But, as far as I can tell, you can't get to anything but blue, by using only the arrow keys.

And, of course, once you "arrow" to the blue slider, you're stuck there until you use the mouse for something.

JohnWho · 06-12-2010, 08:33 PM

got it!

Jim Sachs · 06-12-2010, 10:52 PM

I'm having a hard time sorting through all this. Are the things that are considered strange all happening in the Settings universe, or are some of them happening when the actual program is running?

Edit - OK, I believe they are all in Settings, and you are simply seeing the natural Windows behavior of controls. Tab will switch from one control to the next, as will the arrow keys. The difference is that when the arrow keys land on a slider, they control the slider. That way, you can move all the controls with just the keyboard, and no mouse. When on a slider, just hit Tab to go to the next control. The + and - keys check and uncheck the boxes. A box needs to be checked in order for its associated slider to ever get the focus when using Tab.

The Volume controls move slowly when controlled this way, because they have a lot of ground to cover. Their range is 0 to 3000.

cjmaddy · 06-13-2010, 04:45 AM

11n ? is holding a nice steady FPS within my monitor's refresh rate. - CPU usage is within reasonable bounds. - Fish movement is very smooth.

The Up/Down arrow keys change the volume smoothly, (and slowly!). But their need is totally pointless IMO, the B/M keys are much more efficient at killing the sound if/when taking phone calls, etc.

JohnWho · 06-13-2010, 06:11 AM

Ah, it is a Windows "feature" - the arrow key operation.

Testing it in various Control Panel panels, I see where both left/right arrows and up/down arrows control left/right movement of a slider and once the slider is selected you can not get out of that selection using the arrow keys. Had not noticed that in Windows before.

I guess it would be too much to ask for Jim to correct this oddity in the OS.

JohnWho · 06-13-2010, 06:17 AM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

With pre-MA3 versions, the machine was allowed to run unfettered when Limit Frame Rate was off, and that's the way it will work here. In the early days, the program was used extensively as a bench-mark test for 3D hardware, (it was nicknamed Fishmark).

Default will be ON, with a limit of 90. Users are free to turn it off or adjust the limit up to 125. It's very likely that the new 3D stereovision cards will need to take control of the framerate, so I need to let them do their thing.

Just clarifying -

The slider limits of LFR are 30 - 120. Is 125 a typo?

Dale · 06-13-2010, 08:55 AM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

Edit - OK, I believe they are all in Settings, and you are simply seeing the natural Windows behavior of controls. Tab will switch from one control to the next, as will the arrow keys. The difference is that when the arrow keys land on a slider, they control the slider. That way, you can move all the controls with just the keyboard, and no mouse..

Yes, it's just in Settings.

There seems to be one anomaly: on the main Settings panel, the arrow keys do not traverse the entire set of buttons.

Also, two questions about doing everything with no mouse (just keyboard):

On the Music and Clock/Logo panels, I can't figure out how to get to the "Move" control.

On the Fish Settings panel, I can't figure out how to do much that's of significance (select fish, change numbers, etc.).

Footnote:

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

A box needs to be checked in order for its associated slider to ever get the focus when using Tab.

Does not seem to be the case, at least with Windows 7.

06-12-2010, 07:22 PM	#21
Nicki Sugar Plum Fairy Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Toronto Posts: 1,267	Oh, I should say that pressing CTRL-R brings back the audio distortion but I completely understand Jim's explanation about the CPU cycles, so this is absolutely okay. Without any limits the program has 100% access. This seems to fit the definition and for some people it will be very important even if there are very good reasons never to exceed the monitor refresh rate. Run you clever boy. And remember...

06-12-2010, 07:26 PM	#23
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	I don't know about the first part of that, but the not-resetting-until-arrow-key is something I can fix. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

06-12-2010, 07:39 PM	#24
Nicki Sugar Plum Fairy Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Toronto Posts: 1,267	Project for you then Dale Bring up the program settings box and leave it there. Try unchecking/checking some of the boxes and see if it makes the up/down arrows affect anything they shouldn't. It's a bit random so you'll have to play about. Keep fiddling for a minute or two. Same boxes, different boxes. Run you clever boy. And remember...

06-12-2010, 07:56 PM	#26
JohnWho Registered Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Tampa Bay Area, Florida Posts: 486	Interesting. Note also that the left/right arrows work within the "Pan Speed" and "Limit Frame Rate" sliders, but do not work within the two volume sliders. I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!

06-12-2010, 08:00 PM	#27
JohnWho Registered Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Tampa Bay Area, Florida Posts: 486	Left/Right work with "clock/logo" color picker and the background color sliders too, but, do not work with Volume slider in the "Music Playlist" screen or the above mentioned sliders. I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!

06-12-2010, 07:24 PM	#22
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by Nicki: Okay Dale, I'm getting some weird stuff.. Don't ask me! I just suggested something to try.

06-12-2010, 07:46 PM	#25
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by Nicki: Project for you then Dale Bring up the program settings box and leave it there. Try unchecking/checking some of the boxes and see if it makes the up/down arrows affect anything they shouldn't. It's a bit random so you'll have to play about. Keep fiddling for a minute or two. Same boxes, different boxes. \ Yep. Got it in one (example). Start MA3 Press CTRL-R Bring up Program Settings (spacebar, click) Press up or down arrow, note that it toggles "Cancel" and "OK" buttons [That's one little effect - big effect follows] Check the top box - Exit on Mouse Move. Press the down arrow - TWICE and then hold it. Note what happens. Press the up arrow. Etc. General description: when you check a box, that "line" gets focus. Then pressing the down-arrow moves down a line - until you reach a line with a slider. Then moves over to the slider, and the arrow keys affect the slider position. [Up arrow for right, and down arrow for left). UNchecking a box does the same thing, of course. Added footnote: Same problem with the left/right arrow keys, too. We just never noticed it before????

06-12-2010, 08:00 PM	#28
Ralph Retired Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Edmonton Alberta Ca Posts: 2,443	I don't think that is a bug... how else to move to the next next.. The tab key does it in some programs but the arrow keys are just fine IMO. As to the arrow keys adjusting the volume.. a needless function IMO... the "M" key will mute and the volume knob on my speakers work just fine.

06-12-2010, 08:02 PM	#29
JohnWho Registered Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Tampa Bay Area, Florida Posts: 486	Ralph, the up/down arrows do not always move one to the next next. Sometimes they hang up on the sliders, as mentioned. I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!

06-12-2010, 08:03 PM	#30
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by JohnWho: Interesting. Note also that the left/right arrows work within the "Pan Speed" and "Limit Frame Rate" sliders, but do not work within the two volume sliders. Hmmm - they "work" for me in the volume sliders. Just very slowly. By the way - CTRL-R in my initial instructions isn't necessary, of course. I just wanted to start with "known" conditions.

06-12-2010, 08:05 PM	#31
JohnWho Registered Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Tampa Bay Area, Florida Posts: 486	Originally posted by Dale: Hmmm - they "work" for me in the volume sliders. Just very slowly. I stand corrected. Although, "very slowly" is an understatement. I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!

06-12-2010, 08:18 PM	#32
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by JohnWho: Ralph, the up/down arrows do not always move one to the next next. Sometimes they hang up on the sliders, as mentioned. The arrow keys toggle among 3 of the 9 buttons on the main settings panel. The arrow keys adjust the BLUE color on one of the Background Colors. And surprisingly, are NOT capable of adjusting the volume slider on the Music Settings panel. I agree with Nicki that it's "weird". It also seems (to me) to be inconsistent from panel to panel. Only Jim can tell us if it's working as intended, or what.

06-12-2010, 08:24 PM	#33
JohnWho Registered Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Tampa Bay Area, Florida Posts: 486	Originally posted by Dale: The arrow keys adjust the BLUE color on one of the Background Colors. Works on the RED and GREEN too, for me. I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!

06-12-2010, 08:31 PM	#34
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by JohnWho: Works on the RED and GREEN too, for me. Yes, if you first mouse-click on the red or green slider. But, as far as I can tell, you can't get to anything but blue, by using only the arrow keys. And, of course, once you "arrow" to the blue slider, you're stuck there until you use the mouse for something.

06-12-2010, 08:33 PM	#35
JohnWho Registered Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Tampa Bay Area, Florida Posts: 486	got it! I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!

06-12-2010, 10:52 PM	#36
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	I'm having a hard time sorting through all this. Are the things that are considered strange all happening in the Settings universe, or are some of them happening when the actual program is running? Edit - OK, I believe they are all in Settings, and you are simply seeing the natural Windows behavior of controls. Tab will switch from one control to the next, as will the arrow keys. The difference is that when the arrow keys land on a slider, they control the slider. That way, you can move all the controls with just the keyboard, and no mouse. When on a slider, just hit Tab to go to the next control. The + and - keys check and uncheck the boxes. A box needs to be checked in order for its associated slider to ever get the focus when using Tab. The Volume controls move slowly when controlled this way, because they have a lot of ground to cover. Their range is 0 to 3000. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium Last edited by Jim Sachs; 06-13-2010 at 02:06 AM.

06-13-2010, 04:45 AM	#37
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	11n ? is holding a nice steady FPS within my monitor's refresh rate. - CPU usage is within reasonable bounds. - Fish movement is very smooth. The Up/Down arrow keys change the volume smoothly, (and slowly!). But their need is totally pointless IMO, the B/M keys are much more efficient at killing the sound if/when taking phone calls, etc. Last edited by cjmaddy; 06-13-2010 at 06:32 AM.

06-13-2010, 06:11 AM	#38
JohnWho Registered Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Tampa Bay Area, Florida Posts: 486	Ah, it is a Windows "feature" - the arrow key operation. Testing it in various Control Panel panels, I see where both left/right arrows and up/down arrows control left/right movement of a slider and once the slider is selected you can not get out of that selection using the arrow keys. Had not noticed that in Windows before. I guess it would be too much to ask for Jim to correct this oddity in the OS. I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!

06-13-2010, 06:17 AM	#39
JohnWho Registered Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Tampa Bay Area, Florida Posts: 486	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: With pre-MA3 versions, the machine was allowed to run unfettered when Limit Frame Rate was off, and that's the way it will work here. In the early days, the program was used extensively as a bench-mark test for 3D hardware, (it was nicknamed Fishmark). Default will be ON, with a limit of 90. Users are free to turn it off or adjust the limit up to 125. It's very likely that the new 3D stereovision cards will need to take control of the framerate, so I need to let them do their thing. Just clarifying - The slider limits of LFR are 30 - 120. Is 125 a typo? I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!

06-13-2010, 08:55 AM	#40
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: Edit - OK, I believe they are all in Settings, and you are simply seeing the natural Windows behavior of controls. Tab will switch from one control to the next, as will the arrow keys. The difference is that when the arrow keys land on a slider, they control the slider. That way, you can move all the controls with just the keyboard, and no mouse.. Yes, it's just in Settings. There seems to be one anomaly: on the main Settings panel, the arrow keys do not traverse the entire set of buttons. Also, two questions about doing everything with no mouse (just keyboard): On the Music and Clock/Logo panels, I can't figure out how to get to the "Move" control. On the Fish Settings panel, I can't figure out how to do much that's of significance (select fish, change numbers, etc.). Footnote: Originally posted by Jim Sachs: A box needs to be checked in order for its associated slider to ever get the focus when using Tab. Does not seem to be the case, at least with Windows 7.