My personal opinion - it's time. - Page 2

dlorde · 12-11-2009, 07:10 AM

It's a fair point that newcomers buying the beta might expect a shorter timescale for the 'full' release than we old-timers. Also this release is fully functional in its own right, so needn't be called a 'beta'. I still get people coming up to my desk saying "Wow! that's amazing!", and I still find myself gazing at it while time slips past unnoticed...

The only problem removing the 'beta' designation, would be avoiding the confusion of existing beta users who'd think that there had been some change made to the program...

But anyway, I'd just like to wish Jim seasonal greetings, and to take as long as he likes - stress and pressure just slow creative work.

As Leonardo da Vinci said:

"Every now and then go away, have a little relaxation, for when you come back to your work your judgment will be surer."

codgio · 12-11-2009, 07:34 AM

Originally posted by feldon33:

Easy fix: Stop calling it Beta.

There are no known significant bugs. Now whether you feel that it has the features you expect or not is irrelevant.

Apple iMovie 08 removed a significant amount of features found in iMovie 07. The latest Final Cut Express removed significant features from previous versions of Final Cut Express.

So I'll advise Jim to simply remove the Beta tag. When he does an update, it will be 3.0.1 or 3.1 or 3.5 or whatever.

It is relevant, if you bought the Beta with the expectation that the soon to be released features are coming soon - not that I did. As Dale has said it's all about expectations.

I also personally disagree with the statement that all actively developed software is 'beta'. The continuous process of maintaining and developing a piece of software is very different from moving it from Beta to final release.

henemly · 12-11-2009, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

I have found a thousand things that DON'T work.

Do you have a perception that maybe it simply cannot ever be accomplished?

Jim Sachs · 12-11-2009, 02:11 PM

It can definitely be accomplished, with enough CPU power. The key is to find some trick which will allow collision avoidance with a real-world CPU, without checking every possible trajectory of every point in the Universe against every other point. The question is: Can it be accomplished by ME, in the time I have left?

Dale · 12-11-2009, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

It can definitely be accomplished, with enough CPU power. The key is to find some trick which will allow collision avoidance with a real-world CPU, without checking every possible trajectory of every point in the Universe against every other point. The question is: Can it be accomplished by ME, in the time I have left?

We all presume you will have a lot of years left.

But perhaps you can find a different way to define the task, that allows accomplishment in finite time.

harris · 12-11-2009, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

It can definitely be accomplished, with enough CPU power. The key is to find some trick which will allow collision avoidance with a real-world CPU, without checking every possible trajectory of every point in the Universe against every other point. The question is: Can it be accomplished by ME, in the time I have left?

Jim, I am not a software developer/engineer, but since game developers (especially first-person-shooters) have been using collision avoidance for years there must be a way to accomplish what you need.

Maybe you've hit a wall and it is time to ask for some outside help. There must be a software developer's manual or a college course available somewhere that could explain the process? Whatever happens and no matter how long it takes we are rooting for your success.

Good luck.

Mith · 12-11-2009, 09:00 PM

Originally posted by cjmaddy:

Can we draw a line under all this nonsense now, and let everyone get back to doing things that are more productive?

(Mith closes window and goes back to his trusty internet porn)

mrtew · 12-12-2009, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

The key is to find some trick which will allow collision avoidance with a real-world CPU, without checking every possible trajectory of every point in the Universe against every other point.

Maybe instead of trying to avoid collisions you can just have the fish nip eachother when there is a collision and then turn away like real fish? Or instead of checking every point in the universe just create an invisible sphere around each fish and when they intersect have the fish change direction.

MadBob · 12-12-2009, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by celine:

As Confucius said :haste brings no success.

Or as I like to say.

You can have it right or you can have it now, but you can't have it right now.

spetro · 12-12-2009, 01:29 PM

my moto is
v
v
v
"never trust a plumber that bites his fingernails"

I think this program "as is" is a bargain. Anything above and beyond what we have now is gravy

Dale · 12-12-2009, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by MadBob:

Or as I like to say.

You can have it right or you can have it now, but you can't have it right now.

Please note that my starting post did not suggest having the realistic fish movements sooner. In fact, I suggested "right later". After doing some other things right. Sooner.

Jim said that wouldn't work for him. OK.

spetro · 12-12-2009, 05:09 PM

I'm new here.....but I read a ton before registering. I've been in the forum biz for a VERY long time. Gravitation to me, in the forum world is relaxation. This place is perfect.

Try going to a race car, politic, hunting, gun, flower, farming, etc. forum. You'll always get posts that rile admins...and trickle down to members.

Here...beta or ongoing program is splitting hairs. Dale your post should make all the people involved with this software and forum proud!!!

You want more. That is the true meaning of success. Its like a song you never want to end...or a movie that was two hours but you wanted three.

I love the fact we have what we have! Remember.....and this is important, The name of this particular program is
v
v
v
SereneScreen.

Serene is the target! I don't know Jim from you.....but my gut says that we are all privileged to rub elbowes and encourage the powers to be.

In no way is this post meant to be confrontational...its meant to close gaps and make all of us stronger

Jav400 · 12-12-2009, 08:25 PM

Nice post spetro

It will get there when Jim gets it the way he wants it to be. It might not be as fast as some want, but we have never been disappointed with the results.

Dale · 12-12-2009, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by Jav400:

Nice post spetro

It will get there when Jim gets it the way he wants it to be. It might not be as fast as some want, but we have never been disappointed with the results.

Yes, and

Yes.

kona001 · 12-16-2009, 12:44 PM

Jim,

Many of us have been following your one man venture into creating the perfect digital aquarium and will continue to do so as long as you are willing. I'm glad it is still called a beta since that means you are continuing to work on it. An aquarium offers infinite possibilities for new creatures. I look forward to any new updates and currently enjoy the latest build. So God bless and enjoy your Christmas Holidays with your family. The same goes for everyone else in this forum

Nicki · 12-16-2009, 03:43 PM

Just a liitle thought. When 3.0 first came out for testing, didn't we talk about these being the behaviour models from 1.0? People have mentioned that the movement was more natural in 2.x. Are there different models for 2.x then?

Jim Sachs · 12-16-2009, 04:54 PM

It's always been basically the same algorithm. A little more "repel" had to be added for MA3 because of the greater number of fish and 3D background. This can look somewhat unrealistic when a fish gets backed into a corner and exhibits some non-Newtonian physics to get out.

JohnWho · 12-16-2009, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

This can look somewhat unrealistic when a fish gets backed into a corner and exhibits some non-Newtonian physics to get out.

Maybe you should send that fish back to "school".

ba dum bump

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Jim Sachs · 12-17-2009, 10:35 PM

I can never find my gun when I need it...

snook · 12-20-2009, 03:36 PM

Where is Commander Data when you need him? I'm sure he could find all of the collision points in a few seconds.

12-11-2009, 07:10 AM	#21
dlorde Registered Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: UK Posts: 7	It's a fair point that newcomers buying the beta might expect a shorter timescale for the 'full' release than we old-timers. Also this release is fully functional in its own right, so needn't be called a 'beta'. I still get people coming up to my desk saying "Wow! that's amazing!", and I still find myself gazing at it while time slips past unnoticed... The only problem removing the 'beta' designation, would be avoiding the confusion of existing beta users who'd think that there had been some change made to the program... But anyway, I'd just like to wish Jim seasonal greetings, and to take as long as he likes - stress and pressure just slow creative work. As Leonardo da Vinci said: "Every now and then go away, have a little relaxation, for when you come back to your work your judgment will be surer." Dave

12-11-2009, 07:34 AM	#22
codgio Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Glasgow, UK Posts: 109	All software is beta - I think not. Originally posted by feldon33: Easy fix: Stop calling it Beta. There are no known significant bugs. Now whether you feel that it has the features you expect or not is irrelevant. Apple iMovie 08 removed a significant amount of features found in iMovie 07. The latest Final Cut Express removed significant features from previous versions of Final Cut Express. So I'll advise Jim to simply remove the Beta tag. When he does an update, it will be 3.0.1 or 3.1 or 3.5 or whatever. It is relevant, if you bought the Beta with the expectation that the soon to be released features are coming soon - not that I did. As Dale has said it's all about expectations. I also personally disagree with the statement that all actively developed software is 'beta'. The continuous process of maintaining and developing a piece of software is very different from moving it from Beta to final release. Remember what the doormouse said...

12-11-2009, 02:11 PM	#24
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	It can definitely be accomplished, with enough CPU power. The key is to find some trick which will allow collision avoidance with a real-world CPU, without checking every possible trajectory of every point in the Universe against every other point. The question is: Can it be accomplished by ME, in the time I have left? Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

12-12-2009, 01:04 PM	#28
mrtew Registered Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: michigan Posts: 109	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: The key is to find some trick which will allow collision avoidance with a real-world CPU, without checking every possible trajectory of every point in the Universe against every other point. Maybe instead of trying to avoid collisions you can just have the fish nip eachother when there is a collision and then turn away like real fish? Or instead of checking every point in the universe just create an invisible sphere around each fish and when they intersect have the fish change direction. mrtew

12-12-2009, 08:25 PM	#33
Jav400 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 9,725	Nice post spetro It will get there when Jim gets it the way he wants it to be. It might not be as fast as some want, but we have never been disappointed with the results. Michael Administrator of Inside:SereneScreen Aquarium Forum, Chatroom, Fan Site & *Gallery* DVD Collection

12-11-2009, 01:22 PM	#23
henemly asdf Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Hiko, CommieFagnia Posts: 278	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: I have found a thousand things that DON'T work. Do you have a perception that maybe it simply cannot ever be accomplished?

12-11-2009, 03:40 PM	#25
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: It can definitely be accomplished, with enough CPU power. The key is to find some trick which will allow collision avoidance with a real-world CPU, without checking every possible trajectory of every point in the Universe against every other point. The question is: Can it be accomplished by ME, in the time I have left? We all presume you will have a lot of years left. But perhaps you can find a different way to define the task, that allows accomplishment in finite time.

12-11-2009, 04:09 PM	#26
harris Registered Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Missouri Posts: 122	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: It can definitely be accomplished, with enough CPU power. The key is to find some trick which will allow collision avoidance with a real-world CPU, without checking every possible trajectory of every point in the Universe against every other point. The question is: Can it be accomplished by ME, in the time I have left? Jim, I am not a software developer/engineer, but since game developers (especially first-person-shooters) have been using collision avoidance for years there must be a way to accomplish what you need. Maybe you've hit a wall and it is time to ask for some outside help. There must be a software developer's manual or a college course available somewhere that could explain the process? Whatever happens and no matter how long it takes we are rooting for your success. Good luck.

12-11-2009, 09:00 PM	#27
Mith Registered Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 140	Originally posted by cjmaddy: Can we draw a line under all this nonsense now, and let everyone get back to doing things that are more productive? (Mith closes window and goes back to his trusty internet porn)

12-12-2009, 01:13 PM	#29
MadBob Guitar Man Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancs. UK Posts: 194	Originally posted by celine: As Confucius said :haste brings no success. Or as I like to say. You can have it right or you can have it now, but you can't have it right now.

12-12-2009, 01:29 PM	#30
spetro Semper Paratus Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Georgia Mountains and Florida, USA Posts: 133	my moto is v v v "never trust a plumber that bites his fingernails" I think this program "as is" is a bargain. Anything above and beyond what we have now is gravy

12-12-2009, 02:35 PM	#31
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by MadBob: Or as I like to say. You can have it right or you can have it now, but you can't have it right now. Please note that my starting post did not suggest having the realistic fish movements sooner. In fact, I suggested "right later". After doing some other things right. Sooner. Jim said that wouldn't work for him. OK.

12-12-2009, 05:09 PM	#32
spetro Semper Paratus Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Georgia Mountains and Florida, USA Posts: 133	I'm new here.....but I read a ton before registering. I've been in the forum biz for a VERY long time. Gravitation to me, in the forum world is relaxation. This place is perfect. Try going to a race car, politic, hunting, gun, flower, farming, etc. forum. You'll always get posts that rile admins...and trickle down to members. Here...beta or ongoing program is splitting hairs. Dale your post should make all the people involved with this software and forum proud!!! You want more. That is the true meaning of success. Its like a song you never want to end...or a movie that was two hours but you wanted three. I love the fact we have what we have! Remember.....and this is important, The name of this particular program is v v v SereneScreen. Serene is the target! I don't know Jim from you.....but my gut says that we are all privileged to rub elbowes and encourage the powers to be. In no way is this post meant to be confrontational...its meant to close gaps and make all of us stronger

12-12-2009, 10:09 PM	#34
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by Jav400: Nice post spetro It will get there when Jim gets it the way he wants it to be. It might not be as fast as some want, but we have never been disappointed with the results. Yes, and Yes.

12-16-2009, 12:44 PM	#35
kona001 New Husband and new Aquarium Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 318	Jim, Many of us have been following your one man venture into creating the perfect digital aquarium and will continue to do so as long as you are willing. I'm glad it is still called a beta since that means you are continuing to work on it. An aquarium offers infinite possibilities for new creatures. I look forward to any new updates and currently enjoy the latest build. So God bless and enjoy your Christmas Holidays with your family. The same goes for everyone else in this forum "We will not tire, we will not falter, and we will not fail"-W2

12-16-2009, 03:43 PM	#36
Nicki Sugar Plum Fairy Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Toronto Posts: 1,267	Just a liitle thought. When 3.0 first came out for testing, didn't we talk about these being the behaviour models from 1.0? People have mentioned that the movement was more natural in 2.x. Are there different models for 2.x then? Run you clever boy. And remember...

12-16-2009, 04:54 PM	#37
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	It's always been basically the same algorithm. A little more "repel" had to be added for MA3 because of the greater number of fish and 3D background. This can look somewhat unrealistic when a fish gets backed into a corner and exhibits some non-Newtonian physics to get out. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

12-16-2009, 07:17 PM	#38
JohnWho Registered Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Tampa Bay Area, Florida Posts: 486	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: This can look somewhat unrealistic when a fish gets backed into a corner and exhibits some non-Newtonian physics to get out. Maybe you should send that fish back to "school". ba dum bump Sorry, couldn't resist.

12-17-2009, 10:35 PM	#39
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	I can never find my gun when I need it... Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

12-20-2009, 03:36 PM	#40
snook Registered Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 6	Where is Commander Data when you need him? I'm sure he could find all of the collision points in a few seconds.