* Dyed/Recolored Fish * - Page 2

vrzone1 · 07-27-2002, 08:28 AM

I can't stand to see anything in a small environment---fish in little cubes or dogs and cats in kennels. I can't stand to see any animal suffer---or think that it may be suffering.

My male Betta is in a 2-gal aquarium with a heater! I have a female Betta in a community tank with Gourami and ghost shrimp (the ghost shrimp know how to keep away from her!) I have put male Bettas in community tanks with tetras and they never bothered anyone. They mostly just stay to themselves.

IMHO, these little cube things were made for Betta just for the ease of being able to put them anywhere you please. Always what's best for mankind--not always what's best for animals.

Yes, I know where Bettas come from and what their natural environment is. But, its a natural and free environment-- not some glass cube. My Betta and other fish are here because I want to look at them. I owe it to them to create the best environment I can for them in return.

Just my 2 cents worth

Nancy

www.vrzone1.com

BlueWinterWaves · 07-27-2002, 09:07 AM

Well good, you go do what you want, Nancy. Meanwhile, my betta is perfectly healthy and happy in its so-called "glass cube."

Yes, I know where Bettas come from and what their natural environment is. But, its a natural and free environment-- not some glass cube.

You ARE aware that their "natural and free" environment is:
1. Often about the size of the glass cube. We're talking rice paddies that dry up into small puddles for half of the year.
2. Fraught with constant danger from the elements.

Bettas are also perfectly adapted to live in small environments. They get much of their oxygen not through their gills but from the water's surface.

You know what? I would never keep a goldfish in a bowl, even a large bowl -- for the simple reason that goldfish are fast-moving fish that use a lot of oxygen and need a lot of space. A goldfish bowl is entirely inappropriate -- yet you see this often, and even ads in aquarium magazines (usually advertising fish food) will feature goldfish in bowls.

Like I said, I would not recommend having any other fish species other than a betta in this small environment -- certainly not the danios (another fish that is fast-moving and needs swimming space) that companies like Aquababies usually put in them. My betta, on the other hand, is quite fine, thank you very much.

Regarding your choice of cohabitants for the betta, all I can say is that you are VERY lucky that your betta has not bothered your tetras and smaller fish. Oh, wait....you said it was a FEMALE betta. Well, that's not the same thing. Females are entirely less aggressive than the ornamental males that are usually what one buys when they purchase a betta. I, too, have seen tanks full of female bettas, twenty or thirty of them in one tank, all living peacefully among themselves and with other fish. Try doing that with twenty or thirty male bettas sometime. You'll have a bloodbath.

Even with a female, though, you are lucky one or more of your small tetras didn't end up as a snack. I once introduced a male betta into a 33-gallon tank that had mostly smaller tetras in it, and various other smaller fish. The betta ate some of the tetras and terrorized the rest before I pulled him out of there into another tank. So like you said....what's best for mankind isn't always what is best for the animals! Choose your "community" fish carefully.

I might add that having a gourami, even a dwarf one, in a 2-gallon tank is a much more tortorous practice than having a betta in a 2-gallon tank. Gouramis need space! The MINIMUM tank size for a dwarf gourami is 5 gallons, no smaller. Even more if your gourami isn't a dwarf.

And having a ghost shrimp in a little 2-gallon tank along with a predatory gourami?? Now that is torture for the shrimp, no doubt! That poor shrimp must be in constant fear for its life, especially in that small of an environment. If you had, say, a 30-gallon tank with the same animals and plenty of hiding caves and plants and things for the shrimp, and a lot of space in the tank so that the gourami isn't always in the shrimp's vicinity, then fine. But in a 2-gallon tank? That poor shrimp must be constantly stressed.

Another poster here mentioned that she has two bettas separated by glass partitions in a single tank. Unless the partitions are opaque, this is much more stressful to the fish than any smaller "cube" would be.

You also can't equate keeping bettas in smaller environments with keeping cats and dogs in kennels. Just as I would never keep a goldfish in a bowl, I would never keep a cat or dog in a small cage. They are intelligent, active creatures that need a lot of room to roam, and especially in the case of a dog, need the love and touch of either another animal, or a human. Keeping such animals in small cages IS torture to them. And it is not even remotely equivalent to the betta situation, whose needs are much, much simpler, and which is highly physically adapted especially for smaller environments.

My betta is going on 2 years, which is old for a betta, and he certainly does not look "depressed" or any worse for wear. So, do what you want. And I'll continue doing what I'm doing, because it works.

vrzone1 · 07-27-2002, 11:38 AM

Let me clarify . . .

My female Betta, the Gourami and the ghost shrimp are in a 20gal tank. LOL The little ghost shrimp have plenty of places to hide and they are not bothered.

Only my male Betta is in the 2-gal tank. I would not put Bettas together in any of my tanks. But, I have put male Bettas in community tanks with no trouble. These Bettas mostly kept to themselves and were not aggressive. I know that they can be, but mine were not.

The fact that I feel that fish should not be put in little cubes is my opinion. Of course, you have your opinion and are entitled to it. We do not have to agree. That we disagree is something I'm cool with.

Nancy

www.vrzone1.com

BlueWinterWaves · 07-27-2002, 12:32 PM

OK, that's better.

If you want to talk about depriving animals of their "natural and free" environments, you could make a very good case against the ENTIRE aquarium hobby -- not to mention the keeping of many other kinds of pets.

Marine coral reef fish have vast expanses to roam free, corals have a constant supply of new, trace-element-rich water from which to extract chemicals to build their communities, filter feeders have a continuous plethora of tiny animals upon which to feed, the sun provides the light for the photosynthetic xoozanthellae better than any metal halid aquarium light could ever provide, and the entire, teeming, magnificent, vast underwater expanse is theirs to behold and to live out their lives in.

Home aquariums, frankly, are pathetic attempts to "duplicate" this environment (but how can you duplicate an ocean? a coral reef?) Even with modern reefkeeping methods, we are still talking about keeping animals that come from environments that stretch endlessly, with thousands upons thousands of gallons of water at the animals' disposal, and with the myriad interactions and relationships between animals that will be for the most part lacking in a captive environment, and we're putting these creatures in...what?....75 gallons, 100 gallons? 200? It is a much bigger step down to put many of these coral reef animals -- such as angelfish, butterflies, wrasses, etc. -- in a 100 gallon tank, than it is to put a betta -- which is used to small, muddy, oxygen-depleted environments -- into a clean, small "cube."

Diving is a hobby that constantly reminds me of that fact. While diving recently, I had a friendly Queen angelfish follow me inquisitively for most of the dive. How many 100 gallon tanks worth of water did I and my curious angelfish friend traverse in our travels that day? You get the idea.

The only truly positive things you can say about the aquarium hobby, and reef aquariums in particular, are:

1. IF the aquarium hobbyist chooses animals properly so as to avoid conflicts and predator/prey situations, and IF the animals are properly cared for (which many times, they are not, through either the aquarium keeper's ignorance or neglect), then they will most likely live longer in an aquarium than in the wild, simply because they have a greater chance of getting caught and eaten in the wild. On the downside again, though, most of these animal species will most likely never breed -- even if you have male/female pairs in your tank. There is something about the tank environment that is just not quite suitable or "right" for these animals to want to breed. There are exceptions -- percula clownfish and banggai cardinals, for instance -- but try breeding a lionfish or a batfish in your aquarium. They won't. It's not right for them. Therefore, you are depriving them of this natural activity. But hey, at least they won't get eaten.

2. An aquarium provides a very small window to a world that most people can't see otherwise. It is extremely interesting and educational to keep an aquarium, especially a reef tank.

I won't even get into the common practices of catching reef fish by poisoning them with cyanide (and thereby killing a lot of other reef animals like corals and inverts in the process), or the hell that these animals have to go through, being packed and shipped and so on, before even winding up in an overcrowded, usually underlit dealer's tank. Or the fact that most of these animals will never again see their natural diets or live corals, or mysid shrimp, or vast, green gardens of macroalgae -- instead feeding on frozen food, or live food that is not native to their locations, or flake food, or clip of lettuce or dried nori instead of fresh, natural algae.

So you could certainly make the case that the entire aquarium hobby is an inhumane one, or at least has quite a few inhumane elements. Yet, like you, I still keep aquariums and I love the hobby. Why? Because it affords me a way to study and enjoy these beautiful, interesting animals in the comfort of my own home.

BlueWinterWaves · 07-27-2002, 12:53 PM

Oops, a little slip of the fingers -- "xoozanthellae" should be "zooxanthellae."

Lightfeather · 07-29-2002, 05:51 PM

I would post a picture of my partitioned tank but I don't own a camera and will definitely post when I get my hands on one. The glass partition is not opaque but I have planted anacras plants on both sides so as to obscure the view of all but a small corner, which gets patrolled regularly but not obsessively.

memilm · 08-02-2002, 12:26 AM

Thanks for your words and your time BlueWinterWaves.
I really enjoyed to read your opinions.

BlueWinterWaves · 08-02-2002, 07:25 PM

Thanks. I understand that not everyone will agree with me as far as my betta is concerned, but I think if you understand where I'm coming from -- namely that in my view, a betta is about the ONLY fish that can be put into a small tank like that -- then you might see that I do keep my animals according to humane practices.

Goldfish should NOT be kept in bowls, under any circumstances. Yet in many cases, this is many people's first entry into fishkeeping.

20 Guppies should NOT be packed into a 10-gallon tank, as you see in many beginner tanks.

Arowanas should NOT be kept in anything less than a 250 gallon tank, and even that is a pretty small space for them. Yet you see them typically being kept in much, much smaller tanks.

Monos should NOT be kept in pure freshwater, and even brackish water is not preferred. Pure seawater is the most beneficial for them. Yet you see monos being sold as freshwater fish.

Lake Malawi and Tanganyikan cichlids need hard, very alkaline water with a pH of 7.7-8.6. South American cichlids typically need soft, acidic water. Yet I find that most fishkeepers (and many fish stores for that matter) are not even remotely aware of the differences.

And so on.....

Adora · 08-15-2002, 11:21 PM

Looked like this board was about to get nasty! I for one have PLENTY to add to this topic...I have been a freshwater fish keeper for several years now, and even work in a fish store. This kind of discussion is an example of what I go through with customers every day. I have a 37 gallon tank, two ten gallon tanks, a three gallon tank (holds my trio of guppies and the crab that hides in the filter), and five male bettas, all kept seperate from my other fish. Not seperate because they HAVE to be, mind you, that's just how I prefer to keep them. I tell my customers that you can keep MOST bettas with other peaceful community fish...provided that the other fish don't have long fins that look like another betta, like male guppies. Yes, you will find some onery guys every once in a while who just prefer to be by themselves, but "most" of the time they'll be okay in a community.

Now, back on the topic of painted/mutated fish. PLEASE DEAR SWEET JESUS don't include them in this software! I fight with every breath in my body to end this practice...these painted fish are always the weakest and first to die, even in perfect water conditions, especially the painted glass fish (which is a misnomer, the dye is actually injected after their protective slime coating is eaten away with a chemical bath). And about the parrot fish...in addition to being an artificially colored fish (also called a jelly bean parrot fish), the fish is genetic mutation between two species who would never breed in the first place (some say its a combination of a convict cichlid X severum). As a result, many of these fish are born with deformities, such as deformed swim bladders (what enables the fish to maintain its position in the water) and spinal curvature, misaligned mouths that the fish either can't close or can't eat with properly, and others.

Please, please Jim...take a stand against these cruel practices that just give these dishonest marketers an extra buck!!

-L

View Poll Results: Should SereneScreen Aquarium have 'painted' fish?
Yes, these fish aren't real	3	5.45%
Yes, people will get the SSF Aquarium rather than buy these fish	3	5.45%
Yes (other reason explained below)	1	1.82%
No!	48	87.27%
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll

07-27-2002, 09:07 AM	#22
BlueWinterWaves Registered Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 139	Well good, you go do what you want, Nancy. Meanwhile, my betta is perfectly healthy and happy in its so-called "glass cube." Yes, I know where Bettas come from and what their natural environment is. But, its a natural and free environment-- not some glass cube. You ARE aware that their "natural and free" environment is: 1. Often about the size of the glass cube. We're talking rice paddies that dry up into small puddles for half of the year. 2. Fraught with constant danger from the elements. Bettas are also perfectly adapted to live in small environments. They get much of their oxygen not through their gills but from the water's surface. You know what? I would never keep a goldfish in a bowl, even a large bowl -- for the simple reason that goldfish are fast-moving fish that use a lot of oxygen and need a lot of space. A goldfish bowl is entirely inappropriate -- yet you see this often, and even ads in aquarium magazines (usually advertising fish food) will feature goldfish in bowls. Like I said, I would not recommend having any other fish species other than a betta in this small environment -- certainly not the danios (another fish that is fast-moving and needs swimming space) that companies like Aquababies usually put in them. My betta, on the other hand, is quite fine, thank you very much. Regarding your choice of cohabitants for the betta, all I can say is that you are VERY lucky that your betta has not bothered your tetras and smaller fish. Oh, wait....you said it was a FEMALE betta. Well, that's not the same thing. Females are entirely less aggressive than the ornamental males that are usually what one buys when they purchase a betta. I, too, have seen tanks full of female bettas, twenty or thirty of them in one tank, all living peacefully among themselves and with other fish. Try doing that with twenty or thirty male bettas sometime. You'll have a bloodbath. Even with a female, though, you are lucky one or more of your small tetras didn't end up as a snack. I once introduced a male betta into a 33-gallon tank that had mostly smaller tetras in it, and various other smaller fish. The betta ate some of the tetras and terrorized the rest before I pulled him out of there into another tank. So like you said....what's best for mankind isn't always what is best for the animals! Choose your "community" fish carefully. I might add that having a gourami, even a dwarf one, in a 2-gallon tank is a much more tortorous practice than having a betta in a 2-gallon tank. Gouramis need space! The MINIMUM tank size for a dwarf gourami is 5 gallons, no smaller. Even more if your gourami isn't a dwarf. And having a ghost shrimp in a little 2-gallon tank along with a predatory gourami?? Now that is torture for the shrimp, no doubt! That poor shrimp must be in constant fear for its life, especially in that small of an environment. If you had, say, a 30-gallon tank with the same animals and plenty of hiding caves and plants and things for the shrimp, and a lot of space in the tank so that the gourami isn't always in the shrimp's vicinity, then fine. But in a 2-gallon tank? That poor shrimp must be constantly stressed. Another poster here mentioned that she has two bettas separated by glass partitions in a single tank. Unless the partitions are opaque, this is much more stressful to the fish than any smaller "cube" would be. You also can't equate keeping bettas in smaller environments with keeping cats and dogs in kennels. Just as I would never keep a goldfish in a bowl, I would never keep a cat or dog in a small cage. They are intelligent, active creatures that need a lot of room to roam, and especially in the case of a dog, need the love and touch of either another animal, or a human. Keeping such animals in small cages IS torture to them. And it is not even remotely equivalent to the betta situation, whose needs are much, much simpler, and which is highly physically adapted especially for smaller environments. My betta is going on 2 years, which is old for a betta, and he certainly does not look "depressed" or any worse for wear. So, do what you want. And I'll continue doing what I'm doing, because it works. Last edited by BlueWinterWaves; 07-27-2002 at 09:17 AM.

07-27-2002, 12:32 PM	#24
BlueWinterWaves Registered Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 139	OK, that's better. If you want to talk about depriving animals of their "natural and free" environments, you could make a very good case against the ENTIRE aquarium hobby -- not to mention the keeping of many other kinds of pets. Marine coral reef fish have vast expanses to roam free, corals have a constant supply of new, trace-element-rich water from which to extract chemicals to build their communities, filter feeders have a continuous plethora of tiny animals upon which to feed, the sun provides the light for the photosynthetic xoozanthellae better than any metal halid aquarium light could ever provide, and the entire, teeming, magnificent, vast underwater expanse is theirs to behold and to live out their lives in. Home aquariums, frankly, are pathetic attempts to "duplicate" this environment (but how can you duplicate an ocean? a coral reef?) Even with modern reefkeeping methods, we are still talking about keeping animals that come from environments that stretch endlessly, with thousands upons thousands of gallons of water at the animals' disposal, and with the myriad interactions and relationships between animals that will be for the most part lacking in a captive environment, and we're putting these creatures in...what?....75 gallons, 100 gallons? 200? It is a much bigger step down to put many of these coral reef animals -- such as angelfish, butterflies, wrasses, etc. -- in a 100 gallon tank, than it is to put a betta -- which is used to small, muddy, oxygen-depleted environments -- into a clean, small "cube." Diving is a hobby that constantly reminds me of that fact. While diving recently, I had a friendly Queen angelfish follow me inquisitively for most of the dive. How many 100 gallon tanks worth of water did I and my curious angelfish friend traverse in our travels that day? You get the idea. The only truly positive things you can say about the aquarium hobby, and reef aquariums in particular, are: 1. IF the aquarium hobbyist chooses animals properly so as to avoid conflicts and predator/prey situations, and IF the animals are properly cared for (which many times, they are not, through either the aquarium keeper's ignorance or neglect), then they will most likely live longer in an aquarium than in the wild, simply because they have a greater chance of getting caught and eaten in the wild. On the downside again, though, most of these animal species will most likely never breed -- even if you have male/female pairs in your tank. There is something about the tank environment that is just not quite suitable or "right" for these animals to want to breed. There are exceptions -- percula clownfish and banggai cardinals, for instance -- but try breeding a lionfish or a batfish in your aquarium. They won't. It's not right for them. Therefore, you are depriving them of this natural activity. But hey, at least they won't get eaten. 2. An aquarium provides a very small window to a world that most people can't see otherwise. It is extremely interesting and educational to keep an aquarium, especially a reef tank. I won't even get into the common practices of catching reef fish by poisoning them with cyanide (and thereby killing a lot of other reef animals like corals and inverts in the process), or the hell that these animals have to go through, being packed and shipped and so on, before even winding up in an overcrowded, usually underlit dealer's tank. Or the fact that most of these animals will never again see their natural diets or live corals, or mysid shrimp, or vast, green gardens of macroalgae -- instead feeding on frozen food, or live food that is not native to their locations, or flake food, or clip of lettuce or dried nori instead of fresh, natural algae. So you could certainly make the case that the entire aquarium hobby is an inhumane one, or at least has quite a few inhumane elements. Yet, like you, I still keep aquariums and I love the hobby. Why? Because it affords me a way to study and enjoy these beautiful, interesting animals in the comfort of my own home. Last edited by BlueWinterWaves; 07-27-2002 at 12:36 PM.

07-29-2002, 05:51 PM	#26
Lightfeather Occupation: Nerd Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: California Posts: 314	I would post a picture of my partitioned tank but I don't own a camera and will definitely post when I get my hands on one. The glass partition is not opaque but I have planted anacras plants on both sides so as to obscure the view of all but a small corner, which gets patrolled regularly but not obsessively. Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.

08-15-2002, 11:21 PM	#29
Adora Registered Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: TX Posts: 8	Glad we calmed down here... Looked like this board was about to get nasty! I for one have PLENTY to add to this topic...I have been a freshwater fish keeper for several years now, and even work in a fish store. This kind of discussion is an example of what I go through with customers every day. I have a 37 gallon tank, two ten gallon tanks, a three gallon tank (holds my trio of guppies and the crab that hides in the filter), and five male bettas, all kept seperate from my other fish. Not seperate because they HAVE to be, mind you, that's just how I prefer to keep them. I tell my customers that you can keep MOST bettas with other peaceful community fish...provided that the other fish don't have long fins that look like another betta, like male guppies. Yes, you will find some onery guys every once in a while who just prefer to be by themselves, but "most" of the time they'll be okay in a community. Now, back on the topic of painted/mutated fish. PLEASE DEAR SWEET JESUS don't include them in this software! I fight with every breath in my body to end this practice...these painted fish are always the weakest and first to die, even in perfect water conditions, especially the painted glass fish (which is a misnomer, the dye is actually injected after their protective slime coating is eaten away with a chemical bath). And about the parrot fish...in addition to being an artificially colored fish (also called a jelly bean parrot fish), the fish is genetic mutation between two species who would never breed in the first place (some say its a combination of a convict cichlid X severum). As a result, many of these fish are born with deformities, such as deformed swim bladders (what enables the fish to maintain its position in the water) and spinal curvature, misaligned mouths that the fish either can't close or can't eat with properly, and others. Please, please Jim...take a stand against these cruel practices that just give these dishonest marketers an extra buck!! -L Will you be my kitty?

07-27-2002, 08:28 AM	#21
vrzone1 Registered Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 53	I can't stand to see anything in a small environment---fish in little cubes or dogs and cats in kennels. I can't stand to see any animal suffer---or think that it may be suffering. My male Betta is in a 2-gal aquarium with a heater! I have a female Betta in a community tank with Gourami and ghost shrimp (the ghost shrimp know how to keep away from her!) I have put male Bettas in community tanks with tetras and they never bothered anyone. They mostly just stay to themselves. IMHO, these little cube things were made for Betta just for the ease of being able to put them anywhere you please. Always what's best for mankind--not always what's best for animals. Yes, I know where Bettas come from and what their natural environment is. But, its a natural and free environment-- not some glass cube. My Betta and other fish are here because I want to look at them. I owe it to them to create the best environment I can for them in return. Just my 2 cents worth Nancy www.vrzone1.com

07-27-2002, 11:38 AM	#23
vrzone1 Registered Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 53	Let me clarify . . . My female Betta, the Gourami and the ghost shrimp are in a 20gal tank. LOL The little ghost shrimp have plenty of places to hide and they are not bothered. Only my male Betta is in the 2-gal tank. I would not put Bettas together in any of my tanks. But, I have put male Bettas in community tanks with no trouble. These Bettas mostly kept to themselves and were not aggressive. I know that they can be, but mine were not. The fact that I feel that fish should not be put in little cubes is my opinion. Of course, you have your opinion and are entitled to it. We do not have to agree. That we disagree is something I'm cool with. Nancy www.vrzone1.com

07-27-2002, 12:53 PM	#25
BlueWinterWaves Registered Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 139	Oops, a little slip of the fingers -- "xoozanthellae" should be "zooxanthellae."

08-02-2002, 12:26 AM	#27
memilm Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: germany Posts: 259	Thanks for your words and your time BlueWinterWaves. I really enjoyed to read your opinions.

08-02-2002, 07:25 PM	#28
BlueWinterWaves Registered Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 139	Thanks. I understand that not everyone will agree with me as far as my betta is concerned, but I think if you understand where I'm coming from -- namely that in my view, a betta is about the ONLY fish that can be put into a small tank like that -- then you might see that I do keep my animals according to humane practices. Goldfish should NOT be kept in bowls, under any circumstances. Yet in many cases, this is many people's first entry into fishkeeping. 20 Guppies should NOT be packed into a 10-gallon tank, as you see in many beginner tanks. Arowanas should NOT be kept in anything less than a 250 gallon tank, and even that is a pretty small space for them. Yet you see them typically being kept in much, much smaller tanks. Monos should NOT be kept in pure freshwater, and even brackish water is not preferred. Pure seawater is the most beneficial for them. Yet you see monos being sold as freshwater fish. Lake Malawi and Tanganyikan cichlids need hard, very alkaline water with a pH of 7.7-8.6. South American cichlids typically need soft, acidic water. Yet I find that most fishkeepers (and many fish stores for that matter) are not even remotely aware of the differences. And so on.....