.99K still locks up - Page 2

Digital Lungfish · 05-16-2001, 10:48 PM

I believe the word you're searching for that best describes how you feel about your ideas is "passionate". You are a dreamer, as I'm sure many of us are, otherwise none of us would be here.

Thanks for trying to clear things up on your end Coelacanth, it is appreciated.

- DL

snorkler · 05-17-2001, 12:26 AM

Phew!! Just read this whole discussion. I think I am more the average computer user, I know how to "cut and paste" and download and install most programs. BUT... the thought of installing new drivers or even a new version of Directx gives me chills! Maybe for no reason, but permanent changes to my computer scare me!
I also have an older computer-366mhz,PII with a Rage Pro- and I still think the SS looks great!
There are probably many like myself who hesitate to enter into your discussions because we simply do not know what you are talking about, or fear asking a "stupid" question!
I have shown the SS to many people who think it is great, but they won't download it because they don't know how. So a floppy or CD is necessary.
So all of you "regulars" when you post keep the rest of us non-geeks (wish I was one!) in mind! And thanks for all the info you have provided!!

feldon34 · 05-17-2001, 02:34 AM

Sorry I can't give a complete list, I've worked ~64 hours the last 6 days.

You mentioned:

-More complex lighting
Definately coming. Not sure about Actinic because Jim would have to, AT LEAST produce a Actinic stencil for each fish or AT MOST, have 2 versions of each texture file, essentially doubling filesize. Stencil means 2 textures per fish, one overlaid on the other.

-Hermit Crabs
-Moving Anemone (which the Clownfish lives in)
-Moving Tentacles on Coral Heads
-Nudibranchs
-Coral Shrimp

All coming.

05-17-2001, 06:32 AM

Maybe, at some point, there could be a separate download (for purchase, of course) of more detailed/elaborate textures for cards that can handle them. That's something that would take up lots of space if included in the program itself. Like the separate ones on the second Unreal Tournament cd. (S3TC/texture compression?)
Does this seem feasible, aside from the size of the download, and the fact that it won't fit on a floppy?

Jav400 · 05-17-2001, 07:26 AM

snorkler,
The only "stupid" question is the one that you didn't ask.

No one knows anything until they learn it for the first time, so feel free to ask away, and if you have any problems you are more than welcome to come in the chat room and we will help you out.

feldon34 · 05-17-2001, 10:42 AM

The program must fit on a floppy. Each time I make a programming change (between 20 and 50 times a day)

And why not network up all of your machines and then post revisions onto a share instead of doing the floppy disk "sneakernet" each time!

You've got a volunteer here to fly out to Calif and get your 10 PCs networked and sharing files. I'll be available in a couple weeks, I'll give you an address to send the tickets to!

hooters · 05-17-2001, 02:51 PM

Can I come to -heck I'll sleep in the a tent on the back 40 ..

PS....~ I've also cut trees for 18 years so I could take care of that satelight prob, for ya lol

hooters · 05-17-2001, 02:54 PM

post cause he knows he wont be going...

hpman77 · 05-18-2001, 09:58 AM

Well, I readed this thred about three times, and just now realized one poing, about the newbies inside the 3d card configurations, and the options they couldn't understand... may I suggest, if it doesn't take too many kbytes (like particle bubbles instead of that textures), to be in a separate config dialog. Something like the "Advanced" button on some games, and by default, all those settings would be set to off, so assure the best compatibility. Then, ppl able to use them, can go there and turn on the options they want to see, and check if their card can handle them.
There coud be also some presets, default to max compatibility, low, medium, high and highest detail, that would turn on/off some of the options.

Just an idea, but that way ppl with incredible 3d card, or advanced user, or newbies, could have the aquarium working as they want

a nice way to keep everybody happy

It's my opinion

what do you think?

Coelacanth · 05-18-2001, 02:56 PM

This is essentially what I suggested in a previous post.

There is a compromise. Make configuration "schemes" like MODEST SYSTEM, MEDIUM SYSTEM, FAST SYSTEM, and THE WORKS. Put them on big, easy to click, understandable buttons. And include an ADVANCED button which would lead to a screenful of options for the tweak-happy propellerheads.

hpman77 · 05-19-2001, 05:24 AM

that's it, coelacanth. I think that would be great. What do you think, Jim? would it be possible?

Jim Sachs · 05-19-2001, 10:15 AM

Since I started this project, the most dreaded and mysterious part of writing a program for Windows has been device and driver enumeration. That's why the Aquarium only works with the Primary Display Device, and not pass-thru cards or multi-monitor setups. The DX8 example code provided by Microsoft is supposed to do a better job of finding out what each card's capabilities are, but it's too incompatible to graft into my DX6 code.

Eventually, actual programmers from Prolific Publishing may take over the coding of the Aquarium, and features like these may start showing up then.

feldon34 · 05-19-2001, 10:28 AM

4 steps is a lot.

The question is, does the 3D background, stationary, put any less load on the CPU than a 3D background, moving.

I think the answer is very little.

What slows a 3D card down is not moving stuff, but just ANY geometry with ANY complex textures. And in the case of the coral, Jim cannot afford, disk space-wise, to have more than 1 set of textures for slow systems.

The 3D background will have the geometry of about 2 fish. If people need to turn off 1-2 fish to run the Aquarium, they will.

Coelacanth · 05-19-2001, 10:31 AM

That sounds good, Jim.

It's amazing how much discussion is being generated by "just" a screensaver. Goes to show that this is just not any screensaver you've created. Actually the word "screensaver" sort of does it an injustice.

Coelacanth · 05-19-2001, 10:45 AM

I'm not following your "four steps" comment, Morgan. It wouldn't be four steps, it would be four choices. The user wouldn't have to go through four steps, just one. Or did you mean you think four gradations would be too much? I would disagree. Sure, in its PRESENT state (and probably near future state), yeah, there won't be four levels of graphic complexity. But I'm thinking beyond that. The aquarium could eventually have myriad choices, some of which may require a lot of graphics power to accomplish (at least when all of the other basic graphic elements are ALSO turned on), so therefore these schemes would come into play.

And I think you mean "less load on the GPU," not CPU. The video card is what we're talking about primarily here.

Yes, more complex geometry (polygons) and more complex texturing are what put a load on a graphics card. But stationary elements aren't going to put nearly the load as animated elements. I believe if the scene never changes, there is no additional calculation to be done to create a new scene. I've tried this in games quite often. Move into a new complex area (such as looking at a 3D castle), and the fps will dip down. Stay stationary, looking at the same castle, and the fps will rise and stay at a steady rate. Moving stuff definitely puts more of a load on the system.

05-16-2001, 10:48 PM	#21
Digital Lungfish Obey the toad! Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Diego, California Posts: 2,557	Re: In my humble opinion... I believe the word you're searching for that best describes how you feel about your ideas is "passionate". You are a dreamer, as I'm sure many of us are, otherwise none of us would be here. Thanks for trying to clear things up on your end Coelacanth, it is appreciated. - DL Steve www.tron-sector.com - www.badcartridge.com - www.classicgaming.com - www.dinofish.com Today is the tomorrow you were worried about yesterday...

05-17-2001, 12:26 AM	#22
snorkler Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 59	In my humble opinion... Phew!! Just read this whole discussion. I think I am more the average computer user, I know how to "cut and paste" and download and install most programs. BUT... the thought of installing new drivers or even a new version of Directx gives me chills! Maybe for no reason, but permanent changes to my computer scare me! I also have an older computer-366mhz,PII with a Rage Pro- and I still think the SS looks great! There are probably many like myself who hesitate to enter into your discussions because we simply do not know what you are talking about, or fear asking a "stupid" question! I have shown the SS to many people who think it is great, but they won't download it because they don't know how. So a floppy or CD is necessary. So all of you "regulars" when you post keep the rest of us non-geeks (wish I was one!) in mind! And thanks for all the info you have provided!!

05-17-2001, 02:34 AM	#23
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	Re: In my humble opinion... Sorry I can't give a complete list, I've worked ~64 hours the last 6 days. You mentioned: -More complex lighting Definately coming. Not sure about Actinic because Jim would have to, AT LEAST produce a Actinic stencil for each fish or AT MOST, have 2 versions of each texture file, essentially doubling filesize. Stencil means 2 textures per fish, one overlaid on the other. -Hermit Crabs -Moving Anemone (which the Clownfish lives in) -Moving Tentacles on Coral Heads -Nudibranchs -Coral Shrimp All coming. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

05-17-2001, 06:32 AM	#24
Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Possible? Maybe, at some point, there could be a separate download (for purchase, of course) of more detailed/elaborate textures for cards that can handle them. That's something that would take up lots of space if included in the program itself. Like the separate ones on the second Unreal Tournament cd. (S3TC/texture compression?) Does this seem feasible, aside from the size of the download, and the fact that it won't fit on a floppy?

05-17-2001, 07:26 AM	#25
Jav400 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 9,725	Re: Possible? snorkler, The only "stupid" question is the one that you didn't ask. No one knows anything until they learn it for the first time, so feel free to ask away, and if you have any problems you are more than welcome to come in the chat room and we will help you out. Michael Administrator of Inside:SereneScreen Aquarium Forum, Chatroom, Fan Site & *Gallery* DVD Collection

05-17-2001, 10:42 AM	#26
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	Re: Possible? The program must fit on a floppy. Each time I make a programming change (between 20 and 50 times a day) And why not network up all of your machines and then post revisions onto a share instead of doing the floppy disk "sneakernet" each time! You've got a volunteer here to fly out to Calif and get your 10 PCs networked and sharing files. I'll be available in a couple weeks, I'll give you an address to send the tickets to! "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

05-17-2001, 02:51 PM	#27
hooters Percula Clown Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Ummmmm Posts: 84	~HeHe...~ Can I come to -heck I'll sleep in the a tent on the back 40 .. PS....~ I've also cut trees for 18 years so I could take care of that satelight prob, for ya lol ~RELAXATION IS WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT~

05-17-2001, 02:54 PM	#28
hooters Percula Clown Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Ummmmm Posts: 84	My little icon guy is crying in the previous post cause he knows he wont be going... ~RELAXATION IS WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT~

05-18-2001, 09:58 AM	#29
hpman77 Blue Angel Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Santander (Spain) Posts: 285	About advanced configurations Well, I readed this thred about three times, and just now realized one poing, about the newbies inside the 3d card configurations, and the options they couldn't understand... may I suggest, if it doesn't take too many kbytes (like particle bubbles instead of that textures), to be in a separate config dialog. Something like the "Advanced" button on some games, and by default, all those settings would be set to off, so assure the best compatibility. Then, ppl able to use them, can go there and turn on the options they want to see, and check if their card can handle them. There coud be also some presets, default to max compatibility, low, medium, high and highest detail, that would turn on/off some of the options. Just an idea, but that way ppl with incredible 3d card, or advanced user, or newbies, could have the aquarium working as they want a nice way to keep everybody happy It's my opinion what do you think? .:: AMD Athlon XP 1700+ :: 512MB SDRAM :: Windows XP SP1 :: shappire ATI radeon 9600 PRO :: Soundblaster Live Player 5.1 :: Directx 9.0 :: (Always latest drivers for everything) ::.

05-18-2001, 02:56 PM	#30
Coelacanth Thought to be Extinct Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: My Watery Abode Posts: 180	Re: About advanced configurations This is essentially what I suggested in a previous post. There is a compromise. Make configuration "schemes" like MODEST SYSTEM, MEDIUM SYSTEM, FAST SYSTEM, and THE WORKS. Put them on big, easy to click, understandable buttons. And include an ADVANCED button which would lead to a screenful of options for the tweak-happy propellerheads.

05-19-2001, 05:24 AM	#31
hpman77 Blue Angel Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Santander (Spain) Posts: 285	Re: About advanced configurations that's it, coelacanth. I think that would be great. What do you think, Jim? would it be possible? .:: AMD Athlon XP 1700+ :: 512MB SDRAM :: Windows XP SP1 :: shappire ATI radeon 9600 PRO :: Soundblaster Live Player 5.1 :: Directx 9.0 :: (Always latest drivers for everything) ::.

05-19-2001, 10:15 AM	#32
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	Re: About advanced configurations Since I started this project, the most dreaded and mysterious part of writing a program for Windows has been device and driver enumeration. That's why the Aquarium only works with the Primary Display Device, and not pass-thru cards or multi-monitor setups. The DX8 example code provided by Microsoft is supposed to do a better job of finding out what each card's capabilities are, but it's too incompatible to graft into my DX6 code. Eventually, actual programmers from Prolific Publishing may take over the coding of the Aquarium, and features like these may start showing up then. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

05-19-2001, 10:28 AM	#33
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	Re: About advanced configurations 4 steps is a lot. The question is, does the 3D background, stationary, put any less load on the CPU than a 3D background, moving. I think the answer is very little. What slows a 3D card down is not moving stuff, but just ANY geometry with ANY complex textures. And in the case of the coral, Jim cannot afford, disk space-wise, to have more than 1 set of textures for slow systems. The 3D background will have the geometry of about 2 fish. If people need to turn off 1-2 fish to run the Aquarium, they will. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

05-19-2001, 10:31 AM	#34
Coelacanth Thought to be Extinct Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: My Watery Abode Posts: 180	Re: About advanced configurations That sounds good, Jim. It's amazing how much discussion is being generated by "just" a screensaver. Goes to show that this is just not any screensaver you've created. Actually the word "screensaver" sort of does it an injustice.

05-19-2001, 10:45 AM	#35
Coelacanth Thought to be Extinct Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: My Watery Abode Posts: 180	Re: About advanced configurations I'm not following your "four steps" comment, Morgan. It wouldn't be four steps, it would be four choices. The user wouldn't have to go through four steps, just one. Or did you mean you think four gradations would be too much? I would disagree. Sure, in its PRESENT state (and probably near future state), yeah, there won't be four levels of graphic complexity. But I'm thinking beyond that. The aquarium could eventually have myriad choices, some of which may require a lot of graphics power to accomplish (at least when all of the other basic graphic elements are ALSO turned on), so therefore these schemes would come into play. And I think you mean "less load on the GPU," not CPU. The video card is what we're talking about primarily here. Yes, more complex geometry (polygons) and more complex texturing are what put a load on a graphics card. But stationary elements aren't going to put nearly the load as animated elements. I believe if the scene never changes, there is no additional calculation to be done to create a new scene. I've tried this in games quite often. Move into a new complex area (such as looking at a 3D castle), and the fps will dip down. Stay stationary, looking at the same castle, and the fps will rise and stay at a steady rate. Moving stuff definitely puts more of a load on the system.