WHEN ? - Page 2

CephaloP · 08-20-2002, 11:05 AM

Curiosity:

Tiny, did you know what Tonto meant when you posted that?

Tiny Turtle · 08-20-2002, 11:47 AM

Well, to me it as just a name in an expression I heard somewhere. Kinda like "I don't think we're in Kansas anymore, Toto" (Hey, look! Almost the same name

). – Have I offended someone with it?

/Tiny Tornado

feldon34 · 08-20-2002, 01:33 PM

Toto and Tonto are a bit different.

Tiny Turtle · 08-20-2002, 02:47 PM

Um, yes. I said almost didn't I? I meant an expression with a name. – Not that specific expression...

/Tiny Similarity

Jim Sachs · 08-20-2002, 04:54 PM

A while ago someone mentioned that that found my attitude about the Aquarium contradictory. Not so at all. You will never find a person who is easier to understand than me. I simply want to have the most possible enjoyment while having the greatest positive effect on the world.

I realized at an early age that making movies was the best way I could accomplish this. When I turned 50 a few years ago, I realized I was running out of time, and the CompuTrainer project was not likely to bring in the kind of money necessary to do a film. So I decided to create a series of hyper-realistic desktop virtual-life programs, which anyone with the price of the average dinner-out could afford.

Yes, the Aquarium must raise money to allow me to make a film. An artist's artwork must finance the next project or he's dead.

I cannot follow the leap of logic necessary to believe that this would in any way imply that I would do anything for money. There are a great many things I would NOT do for money, and sacrificing my integrity or reputation is among them. I thought long and hard to come up with a way of earning a living which would bring joy to many and harm to none.

I found that the best way to keep the quality up in the Aquarium (or anything else I've ever worked on) is to keep tight control of the project. This usually means doing everything myself, but not necessarily. At this moment, Prolific's programmers are creating code for the program which will improve the user interface and various other enhancements.

Yes, I might sell a few more copies if I allowed the user to create their own objects. But this would not improve the Aquarium, it would ultimately hurt it and damage my credibility. Anyone with the skill to make a creature matching the qualitly of the rest of the tank would certainly have the ability to create their own program. It is obvious that within hours of the time I made the fish format public, people would create ridiculous/obscene creatures, distribute them on the Internet, and my Aquarium would become associated with such things. I will do everything I can to prevent that.

feldon34 · 08-20-2002, 05:03 PM

Yes, I might sell a few more copies if I allowed the user to create their own objects. But this would not improve the Aquarium, it would ultimately hurt it and damage my credibility. Anyone with the skill to make a creature matching the qualitly of the rest of the tank would certainly have the ability to create their own program.

Sorry, I do not want to re-invent the wheel. Any attempt I made at trying to create an entirely new Aquarium would be a disaster. I would give up after a few weeks of trying to recreate the programming you have done. The motion would be a joke.

My interest lies in contributing to the only game in town.

IXNAY · 08-21-2002, 09:45 AM

OK I understand...

CephaloP · 08-21-2002, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs

Yes, I might sell a few more copies if I allowed the user to create their own objects. But this would not improve the Aquarium, it would ultimately hurt it and damage my credibility....It is obvious that within hours of the time I made the fish format public, people would create ridiculous/obscene creatures, distribute them on the Internet, and my Aquarium would become associated with such things. I will do everything I can to prevent that.

I appreciate your taking the time to respond, which was something I did not expect. And I admire the things you're doing, and your reasons for doing them.

I still have trouble with your statement that giving the user more creative freedom "would not improve the Aquarium." It seems to ignore the "Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder" element to this kind of program, and presuppose one person's opinion (admittedly the creator's, which does give it a certain weight) as the absolute objective standard for what is the most attractive or pleasing. It is likely that for some people, an Aquarium customized beyond what you've provided for could give them "the most possible enjoyment."

In addition, I think the idea that "the Aquarium" would not be improved is misleading because it would no longer be a "the Aquarium". It would in effect make a limitless number of Aquariums, as many as anyone wanted to create. Many of these would certainly be in yours and many others' views pretty trashy. But I think there would also be a great many high-quality innovations, from intelligent people with respect for the Aquarium and making it better. Some of these you yourself might even feel are improvements on what you've done.

But I understand if you feel that the good that would come of that is outweighed by the huge potential bad that would come with it, as Morgan mentioned. I realize that it's easy for me to sit here and make such comments, when I didn't put in the massive amount of time and effort to get the Aquarium where it is. If I had, maybe I would feel the same way you do about "protecting" what I had worked so hard on.

So I guess I'll just shut up and be patient and accepting like everyone else (not that I have much choice)

Thanks again Jim, for your work and for your willingness to explain yourself on this forum.

p.s. The name of the Lone Ranger's sidekick, Tonto, means "stupid" in Spanish.

Tiny Turtle · 08-21-2002, 12:32 PM

Sorry, Ceph. That Spanish reference was *way* above my head and thus purely coincidental...

Tiny Insulter

Jim Sachs · 08-21-2002, 06:10 PM

Glad to see this thread has lightened up a bit.

There may be artists who feel that their artwork might be improved by letting others mess with it, but I've never met one. As for me, in the 4th grade, I was asked to participate in making a class mural. I said that I'd be happy to do the whole mural, but otherwise I'm not interested. My attitude has not changed. (Yes, I was scolded then, too.)

I also did not know that Tonto means stupid in Spanish. I wonder if the creators of the Lone Ranger did, and considered it an inside joke.

BlueWinterWaves · 08-21-2002, 07:17 PM

Of course, Tonto wasn't Spanish, though. In Potawatami, it supposedly means "wild guy." Which also doesn't make much sense considering Tonto's usual demeanor. Oh well.

It's kind of like the story of the Chevy Nova. Didn't sell too well in Spanish-speaking countries, because "No va" means "doesn't go."

Something interesting about "kemo sabe."
http://www.old-time.com/misc/kemo.html

I think I like the "trusty scout" meaning better than "soggy shrub."

feldon34 · 08-22-2002, 01:04 AM

It's kind of like the story of the Chevy Nova. Didn't sell too well in Spanish-speaking countries, because "No va" means "doesn't go."

http://www.snopes.com/business/misxlate/nova.htm

Tiny Turtle · 08-22-2002, 01:07 AM

Blue, I guess you like Mitsubishi's 4WD model "Pajero", then...

/TT

BlueWinterWaves · 08-22-2002, 12:13 PM

OK, OK, Morgan....sheesh. I was just trying to make a point -- and unfortunately forgot that that particular Nova example was an urban legend.

So. For the anal-retentive: Here are some that actually ARE true:
http://www.i18nguy.com/translations.html

hpman77 · 08-22-2002, 04:28 PM

Blue, most of those facts (at least the ones about things in spanish) are wrong. Most of the english translations are really weird and never happened.

Don't believe everything you see on a website

(although the Pajero thing is real)

BlueWinterWaves · 08-22-2002, 05:23 PM

The ones I posted are mostly correct.

Regardless, it is exceedingly trivial information anyway, and I was just using it as a light-hearted example of the perils of translation, whether it be Tonto or Nova or whatever. But some people just can't let anything slide.

feldon34 · 08-22-2002, 07:14 PM

Let's relax and hang out at www.engrish.com

BlueWinterWaves · 08-22-2002, 09:03 PM

There, that's better.

Tiny Turtle · 08-23-2002, 04:21 AM

Yup, Nothing's better than engrish.com

/Tiny Translation Skills

vrzone1 · 08-23-2002, 09:58 PM

I don't think I have seen Jim post what kind of movie he is wanting to make. If he did, I missed it. Do you know?

Nancy

www.vrzone1.com

08-20-2002, 11:47 AM	#22
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Well, to me it as just a name in an expression I heard somewhere. Kinda like "I don't think we're in Kansas anymore, Toto" (Hey, look! Almost the same name ). – Have I offended someone with it? /Tiny Tornado Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

08-20-2002, 01:33 PM	#23
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	Toto and Tonto are a bit different. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

08-20-2002, 02:47 PM	#24
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Um, yes. I said almost didn't I? I meant an expression with a name. – Not that specific expression... /Tiny Similarity Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

08-20-2002, 04:54 PM	#25
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,787	A while ago someone mentioned that that found my attitude about the Aquarium contradictory. Not so at all. You will never find a person who is easier to understand than me. I simply want to have the most possible enjoyment while having the greatest positive effect on the world. I realized at an early age that making movies was the best way I could accomplish this. When I turned 50 a few years ago, I realized I was running out of time, and the CompuTrainer project was not likely to bring in the kind of money necessary to do a film. So I decided to create a series of hyper-realistic desktop virtual-life programs, which anyone with the price of the average dinner-out could afford. Yes, the Aquarium must raise money to allow me to make a film. An artist's artwork must finance the next project or he's dead. I cannot follow the leap of logic necessary to believe that this would in any way imply that I would do anything for money. There are a great many things I would NOT do for money, and sacrificing my integrity or reputation is among them. I thought long and hard to come up with a way of earning a living which would bring joy to many and harm to none. I found that the best way to keep the quality up in the Aquarium (or anything else I've ever worked on) is to keep tight control of the project. This usually means doing everything myself, but not necessarily. At this moment, Prolific's programmers are creating code for the program which will improve the user interface and various other enhancements. Yes, I might sell a few more copies if I allowed the user to create their own objects. But this would not improve the Aquarium, it would ultimately hurt it and damage my credibility. Anyone with the skill to make a creature matching the qualitly of the rest of the tank would certainly have the ability to create their own program. It is obvious that within hours of the time I made the fish format public, people would create ridiculous/obscene creatures, distribute them on the Internet, and my Aquarium would become associated with such things. I will do everything I can to prevent that. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

08-20-2002, 05:03 PM	#26
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	Yes, I might sell a few more copies if I allowed the user to create their own objects. But this would not improve the Aquarium, it would ultimately hurt it and damage my credibility. Anyone with the skill to make a creature matching the qualitly of the rest of the tank would certainly have the ability to create their own program. Sorry, I do not want to re-invent the wheel. Any attempt I made at trying to create an entirely new Aquarium would be a disaster. I would give up after a few weeks of trying to recreate the programming you have done. The motion would be a joke. My interest lies in contributing to the only game in town. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman Last edited by feldon34; 08-20-2002 at 05:10 PM.

08-20-2002, 11:05 AM	#21
CephaloP lurking in the shadows... Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: just a few paces south o' the old willow Posts: 151	Curiosity: Tiny, did you know what Tonto meant when you posted that?

08-21-2002, 09:45 AM	#27
IXNAY Green Frog Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 840	OK I understand... IXNAY dreaming of the serene terrarium - My Private Homepage -

08-21-2002, 11:16 AM	#28
CephaloP lurking in the shadows... Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: just a few paces south o' the old willow Posts: 151	Originally posted by Jim Sachs Yes, I might sell a few more copies if I allowed the user to create their own objects. But this would not improve the Aquarium, it would ultimately hurt it and damage my credibility....It is obvious that within hours of the time I made the fish format public, people would create ridiculous/obscene creatures, distribute them on the Internet, and my Aquarium would become associated with such things. I will do everything I can to prevent that. I appreciate your taking the time to respond, which was something I did not expect. And I admire the things you're doing, and your reasons for doing them. I still have trouble with your statement that giving the user more creative freedom "would not improve the Aquarium." It seems to ignore the "Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder" element to this kind of program, and presuppose one person's opinion (admittedly the creator's, which does give it a certain weight) as the absolute objective standard for what is the most attractive or pleasing. It is likely that for some people, an Aquarium customized beyond what you've provided for could give them "the most possible enjoyment." In addition, I think the idea that "the Aquarium" would not be improved is misleading because it would no longer be a "the Aquarium". It would in effect make a limitless number of Aquariums, as many as anyone wanted to create. Many of these would certainly be in yours and many others' views pretty trashy. But I think there would also be a great many high-quality innovations, from intelligent people with respect for the Aquarium and making it better. Some of these you yourself might even feel are improvements on what you've done. But I understand if you feel that the good that would come of that is outweighed by the huge potential bad that would come with it, as Morgan mentioned. I realize that it's easy for me to sit here and make such comments, when I didn't put in the massive amount of time and effort to get the Aquarium where it is. If I had, maybe I would feel the same way you do about "protecting" what I had worked so hard on. So I guess I'll just shut up and be patient and accepting like everyone else (not that I have much choice) Thanks again Jim, for your work and for your willingness to explain yourself on this forum. p.s. The name of the Lone Ranger's sidekick, Tonto, means "stupid" in Spanish.

08-21-2002, 12:32 PM	#29
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Sorry, Ceph. That Spanish reference was way above my head and thus purely coincidental... Tiny Insulter Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

08-21-2002, 06:10 PM	#30
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,787	Glad to see this thread has lightened up a bit. There may be artists who feel that their artwork might be improved by letting others mess with it, but I've never met one. As for me, in the 4th grade, I was asked to participate in making a class mural. I said that I'd be happy to do the whole mural, but otherwise I'm not interested. My attitude has not changed. (Yes, I was scolded then, too.) I also did not know that Tonto means stupid in Spanish. I wonder if the creators of the Lone Ranger did, and considered it an inside joke. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

08-21-2002, 07:17 PM	#31
BlueWinterWaves Registered Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 139	Of course, Tonto wasn't Spanish, though. In Potawatami, it supposedly means "wild guy." Which also doesn't make much sense considering Tonto's usual demeanor. Oh well. It's kind of like the story of the Chevy Nova. Didn't sell too well in Spanish-speaking countries, because "No va" means "doesn't go." Something interesting about "kemo sabe." http://www.old-time.com/misc/kemo.html I think I like the "trusty scout" meaning better than "soggy shrub."

08-22-2002, 01:04 AM	#32
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	It's kind of like the story of the Chevy Nova. Didn't sell too well in Spanish-speaking countries, because "No va" means "doesn't go." http://www.snopes.com/business/misxlate/nova.htm "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

08-22-2002, 01:07 AM	#33
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Blue, I guess you like Mitsubishi's 4WD model "Pajero", then... /TT Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

08-22-2002, 12:13 PM	#34
BlueWinterWaves Registered Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 139	OK, OK, Morgan....sheesh. I was just trying to make a point -- and unfortunately forgot that that particular Nova example was an urban legend. So. For the anal-retentive: Here are some that actually ARE true: http://www.i18nguy.com/translations.html

08-22-2002, 04:28 PM	#35
hpman77 Blue Angel Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Santander (Spain) Posts: 285	Blue, most of those facts (at least the ones about things in spanish) are wrong. Most of the english translations are really weird and never happened. Don't believe everything you see on a website (although the Pajero thing is real) .:: AMD Athlon XP 1700+ :: 512MB SDRAM :: Windows XP SP1 :: shappire ATI radeon 9600 PRO :: Soundblaster Live Player 5.1 :: Directx 9.0 :: (Always latest drivers for everything) ::.

08-22-2002, 05:23 PM	#36
BlueWinterWaves Registered Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 139	The ones I posted are mostly correct. Regardless, it is exceedingly trivial information anyway, and I was just using it as a light-hearted example of the perils of translation, whether it be Tonto or Nova or whatever. But some people just can't let anything slide.

08-22-2002, 07:14 PM	#37
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	Let's relax and hang out at www.engrish.com "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

08-22-2002, 09:03 PM	#38
BlueWinterWaves Registered Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 139	There, that's better.

08-23-2002, 04:21 AM	#39
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Yup, Nothing's better than engrish.com /Tiny Translation Skills Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

08-23-2002, 09:58 PM	#40
vrzone1 Registered Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 53	I don't think I have seen Jim post what kind of movie he is wanting to make. If he did, I missed it. Do you know? Nancy www.vrzone1.com