Flag Burning (Political Commentary) - Page 3

Tiny Turtle · 03-29-2004, 12:57 AM

Har har, that's hilarious.

Could someone (preferrably American) describe to me what the Afghan people has done to you to deserve such animosity?

/Tiny Slow Learner

Reichart · 03-29-2004, 01:56 AM

It is not the "people" it is the Taliban government.

Rarely do "people" piss other people off. Usually it is clubs, organizations, groups, etc.

Then there is double crossing the Gov commited when America trained them to defend them selves against the Russians... The rest you can read on the Web.

Marian Nichols · 03-29-2004, 04:22 AM

Ditto

Tiny Turtle · 03-29-2004, 07:27 AM

Hm, as I'm not exclsivly watching Fox, I do have a clue as to what is going on in the world. My point (although the sarcasm got lost in there somewhere) was that since GWB invaded Afghanistan and removed the Taliban rule, I conclude two things:
1. The people of Afhanistan should not be considered enemies of the USA
2. There is no Taliban govt to be considered an enemy.

ergo – no need to continue with the smiting of the poor Afghanis who have seen enough negative things to last them 'til Armageddon. Pissing on their flag would be the equivalence of doing it on the Stars n' Stripes because some stupid white supremacists like to wave it around.

/Tiny Equality

feldon34 · 03-29-2004, 07:54 AM

The Taliban is rushing back to power faster than you can say lemony snicket. We have a bare bones contingent in Afghanistan and we're really only in control of the capitol. Also, we have been propping up and supporting local warlords which is going to bite us in the ass later on.

To slightly misquote the West Wing "when you stand that close to an enemy, it's hard not to paint you all with the same brush".

Tiny Turtle · 03-29-2004, 08:46 AM

Ok, I see now. Let's all piss on their flag...

Reichart · 03-29-2004, 09:36 AM

1. Q: (although the sarcasm got lost in there somewhere)
A: I do my best to promote sarcasm….I do apologize for not reading your sarcasm as such.

2. Q: I conclude two things: 1. The people of Afhanistan should not be considered enemies of the USA
A: Well, I would at least say that “some” people who live in Afghanistan are not enemies of anyone, including the US. But this still is not about people, but groups.

3. There is no Taliban govt to be considered an enemy.
A: They are no longer organized, but they are waiting in the wings. Although, before I say another word, it does need to be mentioned that the photo Morg posted was probably painted and tacked up in a white trash trailer park (by the looks of it, and the misspelling of the ampersand “&”). So it is designed to promote the hateful silly sentiment of “those people,” and not all people.

Here is my quick primitive and honest take on this (Afghanistan):

The Afghanistan gov have refused to hand over guest Osama bin Laden. This pisses Americans off. Even if America has historically harboured known mass murderers from other countries.

Americans fought long and hard for things like equal rights for women, and now wants to enforce these enlightenments on others. Those that are not willing to step up to the 21st century should be locked in 12th century prisons from the view of many Americans.

4. Q: ergo – no need to continue with the smiting of the poor Afghanis who have seen enough negative things to last them 'til Armageddon. Pissing on their flag would be the equivalence of doing it on the Stars n' Stripes because some stupid white supremacists like to wave it around.
A: See, this is the great thing about flags…they are a single easy to make symbol everyone can focus on.

Lets face it, there are very few wars that have fun solid clearly defined sides.

I have to admit, I think that Osama commited a “world” crime, and therefore there should be a world court, which stands above the Supreme court, and handles these things.

I also believe that Islamicism promotes a system of thinking that tortures many, demonstrably the women. I would like to see a long term (this could take a very long time) system of education put into place to counter the effects of all religion. But if we look back on our own histories (yours, mine, America’s) each “group” has needed to fight its own demons and battles.

100 years ago, children were chained to machines to keep them working, women had no rights to government, or even to chose their profession, Victorian morality stifled expression, and this is America.

Marian Nichols · 03-29-2004, 09:49 AM

I hesitate to post, because I have been putting my foot in my own mouth as of late and getting way off topic. So I will only say all point of views are very valid, and it is through discussions such as this that we come to terms with ourselves and our place on Earth.

patscarr · 03-29-2004, 09:49 AM

Originally posted by Reichart
Although, before I say another word, it does need to be mentioned that the photo Morg posted was probably painted and tacked up in a white trash trailer park

It was also probably posted just after 9-11 and before America invaded. It doesn't seem to be very "up-to-date."

Tiny Turtle · 03-29-2004, 09:53 AM

Reichart,
Dang! I was just about to say that this is why we're not supposed to discuss politics on this forum and call it quits when you pull this excellent summary out. I can settle for this with the exception that I (personally) don't believe it's Islam all in itself which is to blame for the torturing you mention but rather the state of society in many muslim countries (like I don't think catholicism promotes a system of thinking where deviants should be tortured and/or burnt alive like the inquisition (sp?) did in the dark ages).

P.S. I was retty sure this thread wouldn't get locked up as the original instigation was added by our administrator

Morgan,
Thanks for mentioning Lemony Snicket. That's my Anglo-Saxon tidbit of the day...

Edit:
Pat,
The Afghans didn't destroy the WTC, the Afghan government refused to flush out Osama bin Laden which made GWB's PR machine tell the US bombing the crap out of Afghanistan was a proper retaliation. U.S. armed forces killed a greater number of civilians in the Afghanistan campaign than the number of casualties in 9-11 WTC disaster, how can that be acceptable? If two Swedes kill an American, would it be justifiable to kill three innocent Swedes in order to catch the two murderes? (and then not even manage to catch them)

/Tiny One More Time

drfish · 03-29-2004, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by Tiny Turtle
P.S. I was retty sure this thread wouldn't get locked up as the original instigation was added by our administrator

Yeah, what's up with that Morgan?

Reichart · 03-29-2004, 10:21 AM

1. Q: like I don't think catholicism promotes a system of thinking where deviants should be tortured and/or burnt alive like the inquisition (sp?) did in the dark ages

A: Uh, er, I think I can only respond with one word...Ireland.

Tiny Turtle · 03-29-2004, 11:18 AM

Are deviants being tortured in Ireland? Perhaps we should have GWB point his Tomahawk missiles towards Cork & Dublin?

Never mind, I'm not into any religion at all and will rather say I was wrong than take a beating for all the stupidity religion has done through the ages.

/Tiny Theophobist

Marian Nichols · 03-29-2004, 12:32 PM

Have y'all never heard the saying 'war is hell'? There never is anything fair about any kind of hatred we may have towards one another. But there is also the premise that if we do nothing when we are attack but stand back like whimpering dogs with our tails tuck between our legs, then we deserve any additional abuse we may received. What has religion got to do with war? What has religion got to do with politics? None!! But it does. We all know that it does. Two wrongs do not make a right. Islam in its truest form is as good as any. All religions, even Christianity keep women in servitude. I look at today’s liberation of women and people of minority races; they do not know how to handle their new found freedoms. These nations that are receiving democracy will not be able to hang onto them. There are always tyrants in the wings waiting for opportunities to leap like a lion on a lamb and seize the power as so many have done throughout history. Yet we continue to struggle, to fight, because if we don’t, then ‘we are history’ as a free people. Do I believe in war? Yes! I will fight right now for my home, my family, my friends, my freedom, and woe to those who might come between me and those I seek. You are either with me or against me. If you are neutral, then get out of the way, because if I must I will go through you. So there is my opinion on all of this, and I grant you the right to yours.

PEACE

patscarr · 03-29-2004, 07:31 PM

Another saying: Freedom is not free. It costs lives, money, hard work, determination, sacrifices, the ability to burn and/or pee on flags, etc...

Ralph · 03-29-2004, 11:48 PM

At the risk of adding to the political direction this thread is going in...
This "freedom" that the Americans always seem to rally around...... how is it different than the freedoms of other countries. Say England, Australia, Canada, France.......?
You pay taxes, you drive with the permission of a licence and insurance, you pay what the market will bear when you purchase your goods. You are not "free" to marry your cousin or have multiple partners. You are not free to build a house where you want. Heck, you can't even go for a holiday to Cuba.
Freedom of choice in your elections?.... Freedom to send your child to the school of your choice? To get the medical treatment you need? The job you want.......
Those with money have choices but I don't see much freedom.

Tiny Turtle · 03-30-2004, 12:42 AM

Hm, Seems like nobody want to touch my question about killing a couple of Swedes while trying to catch some others?

Didn't think so either...

Peace/Freedom/Whatever

Jim Sachs · 03-30-2004, 01:51 AM

I guess nobody can visualize a scenario where the first two Swedes would have committed the murder, let alone killing innocent ones trying to track them down. It must be great to live in a country where no one harbours you any ill will

cjmaddy · 03-30-2004, 03:39 AM

In heated debate, (or any debate!), the proponents focus can become blinkered, objectivism goes out the window! IMHO!

ps, - Would it be alright to burn the bloody screensaver?

patscarr · 03-30-2004, 04:04 AM

Originally posted by Tiny Turtle
If two Swedes kill an American, would it be justifiable to kill three innocent Swedes in order to catch the two murderes?

I'll take a crack at it.

I'll answer your hypothetical question with another one. If 1 crazy maniac blew up the Royal Palace in Stockholm, killing 1 person, then fled to Norway where the government there protected him, called him a hero, and encouraged other maniacs to do more of the same, what would you want your Swedish governement to do?

Originally posted by cjmaddy
ps, - Would it be alright to burn the bloody screensaver?

Hey, as long as you pay for your copy, you can do whatever you want with it. Right Reichart?

03-29-2004, 12:57 AM	#41
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Har har, that's hilarious. Could someone (preferrably American) describe to me what the Afghan people has done to you to deserve such animosity? /Tiny Slow Learner Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

03-29-2004, 01:56 AM	#42
Reichart CTO Prolific Publishing Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Maui Posts: 423	It is not the "people" it is the Taliban government. Rarely do "people" piss other people off. Usually it is clubs, organizations, groups, etc. Then there is double crossing the Gov commited when America trained them to defend them selves against the Russians... The rest you can read on the Web. *Reichart...* , CTO, Prolific Publishing, Inc. Come visit us Prolific Publishing, Inc.

03-29-2004, 07:27 AM	#44
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Hm, as I'm not exclsivly watching Fox, I do have a clue as to what is going on in the world. My point (although the sarcasm got lost in there somewhere) was that since GWB invaded Afghanistan and removed the Taliban rule, I conclude two things: 1. The people of Afhanistan should not be considered enemies of the USA 2. There is no Taliban govt to be considered an enemy. ergo – no need to continue with the smiting of the poor Afghanis who have seen enough negative things to last them 'til Armageddon. Pissing on their flag would be the equivalence of doing it on the Stars n' Stripes because some stupid white supremacists like to wave it around. /Tiny Equality Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

03-29-2004, 07:54 AM	#45
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	The Taliban is rushing back to power faster than you can say lemony snicket. We have a bare bones contingent in Afghanistan and we're really only in control of the capitol. Also, we have been propping up and supporting local warlords which is going to bite us in the ass later on. To slightly misquote the West Wing "when you stand that close to an enemy, it's hard not to paint you all with the same brush". "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

03-29-2004, 08:46 AM	#46
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Ok, I see now. Let's all piss on their flag... Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

03-29-2004, 04:22 AM	#43
Marian Nichols ~Author~ Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Rocky Mount, NC Posts: 7,429	Ditto

03-29-2004, 09:36 AM	#47
Reichart CTO Prolific Publishing Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Maui Posts: 423	1. Q: (although the sarcasm got lost in there somewhere) A: I do my best to promote sarcasm….I do apologize for not reading your sarcasm as such. 2. Q: I conclude two things: 1. The people of Afhanistan should not be considered enemies of the USA A: Well, I would at least say that “some” people who live in Afghanistan are not enemies of anyone, including the US. But this still is not about people, but groups. 3. There is no Taliban govt to be considered an enemy. A: They are no longer organized, but they are waiting in the wings. Although, before I say another word, it does need to be mentioned that the photo Morg posted was probably painted and tacked up in a white trash trailer park (by the looks of it, and the misspelling of the ampersand “&”). So it is designed to promote the hateful silly sentiment of “those people,” and not all people. Here is my quick primitive and honest take on this (Afghanistan): The Afghanistan gov have refused to hand over guest Osama bin Laden. This pisses Americans off. Even if America has historically harboured known mass murderers from other countries. Americans fought long and hard for things like equal rights for women, and now wants to enforce these enlightenments on others. Those that are not willing to step up to the 21st century should be locked in 12th century prisons from the view of many Americans. 4. Q: ergo – no need to continue with the smiting of the poor Afghanis who have seen enough negative things to last them 'til Armageddon. Pissing on their flag would be the equivalence of doing it on the Stars n' Stripes because some stupid white supremacists like to wave it around. A: See, this is the great thing about flags…they are a single easy to make symbol everyone can focus on. Lets face it, there are very few wars that have fun solid clearly defined sides. I have to admit, I think that Osama commited a “world” crime, and therefore there should be a world court, which stands above the Supreme court, and handles these things. I also believe that Islamicism promotes a system of thinking that tortures many, demonstrably the women. I would like to see a long term (this could take a very long time) system of education put into place to counter the effects of all religion. But if we look back on our own histories (yours, mine, America’s) each “group” has needed to fight its own demons and battles. 100 years ago, children were chained to machines to keep them working, women had no rights to government, or even to chose their profession, Victorian morality stifled expression, and this is America. *Reichart...* , CTO, Prolific Publishing, Inc. Come visit us Prolific Publishing, Inc.

03-29-2004, 09:49 AM	#48
Marian Nichols ~Author~ Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Rocky Mount, NC Posts: 7,429	I hesitate to post, because I have been putting my foot in my own mouth as of late and getting way off topic. So I will only say all point of views are very valid, and it is through discussions such as this that we come to terms with ourselves and our place on Earth.

03-29-2004, 09:49 AM	#49
patscarr Pet Shark Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Back in Buffalo Posts: 5,455	Originally posted by Reichart Although, before I say another word, it does need to be mentioned that the photo Morg posted was probably painted and tacked up in a white trash trailer park It was also probably posted just after 9-11 and before America invaded. It doesn't seem to be very "up-to-date." Patrick

03-29-2004, 09:53 AM	#50
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Reichart, Dang! I was just about to say that this is why we're not supposed to discuss politics on this forum and call it quits when you pull this excellent summary out. I can settle for this with the exception that I (personally) don't believe it's Islam all in itself which is to blame for the torturing you mention but rather the state of society in many muslim countries (like I don't think catholicism promotes a system of thinking where deviants should be tortured and/or burnt alive like the inquisition (sp?) did in the dark ages). P.S. I was retty sure this thread wouldn't get locked up as the original instigation was added by our administrator Morgan, Thanks for mentioning Lemony Snicket. That's my Anglo-Saxon tidbit of the day... Edit: Pat, The Afghans didn't destroy the WTC, the Afghan government refused to flush out Osama bin Laden which made GWB's PR machine tell the US bombing the crap out of Afghanistan was a proper retaliation. U.S. armed forces killed a greater number of civilians in the Afghanistan campaign than the number of casualties in 9-11 WTC disaster, how can that be acceptable? If two Swedes kill an American, would it be justifiable to kill three innocent Swedes in order to catch the two murderes? (and then not even manage to catch them) /Tiny One More Time Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

03-29-2004, 10:01 AM	#51
drfish the Doc Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Zeeland, MI Posts: 5,357	Originally posted by Tiny Turtle P.S. I was retty sure this thread wouldn't get locked up as the original instigation was added by our administrator Yeah, what's up with that Morgan? I don't watch commercials.

03-29-2004, 10:21 AM	#52
Reichart CTO Prolific Publishing Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Maui Posts: 423	1. Q: like I don't think catholicism promotes a system of thinking where deviants should be tortured and/or burnt alive like the inquisition (sp?) did in the dark ages A: Uh, er, I think I can only respond with one word...Ireland. *Reichart...* , CTO, Prolific Publishing, Inc. Come visit us Prolific Publishing, Inc.

03-29-2004, 11:18 AM	#53
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Are deviants being tortured in Ireland? Perhaps we should have GWB point his Tomahawk missiles towards Cork & Dublin? Never mind, I'm not into any religion at all and will rather say I was wrong than take a beating for all the stupidity religion has done through the ages. /Tiny Theophobist Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

03-29-2004, 12:32 PM	#54
Marian Nichols ~Author~ Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Rocky Mount, NC Posts: 7,429	Have y'all never heard the saying 'war is hell'? There never is anything fair about any kind of hatred we may have towards one another. But there is also the premise that if we do nothing when we are attack but stand back like whimpering dogs with our tails tuck between our legs, then we deserve any additional abuse we may received. What has religion got to do with war? What has religion got to do with politics? None!! But it does. We all know that it does. Two wrongs do not make a right. Islam in its truest form is as good as any. All religions, even Christianity keep women in servitude. I look at today’s liberation of women and people of minority races; they do not know how to handle their new found freedoms. These nations that are receiving democracy will not be able to hang onto them. There are always tyrants in the wings waiting for opportunities to leap like a lion on a lamb and seize the power as so many have done throughout history. Yet we continue to struggle, to fight, because if we don’t, then ‘we are history’ as a free people. Do I believe in war? Yes! I will fight right now for my home, my family, my friends, my freedom, and woe to those who might come between me and those I seek. You are either with me or against me. If you are neutral, then get out of the way, because if I must I will go through you. So there is my opinion on all of this, and I grant you the right to yours. PEACE

03-29-2004, 07:31 PM	#55
patscarr Pet Shark Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Back in Buffalo Posts: 5,455	Another saying: Freedom is not free. It costs lives, money, hard work, determination, sacrifices, the ability to burn and/or pee on flags, etc... Patrick

03-29-2004, 11:48 PM	#56
Ralph Retired Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Edmonton Alberta Ca Posts: 2,443	At the risk of adding to the political direction this thread is going in... This "freedom" that the Americans always seem to rally around...... how is it different than the freedoms of other countries. Say England, Australia, Canada, France.......? You pay taxes, you drive with the permission of a licence and insurance, you pay what the market will bear when you purchase your goods. You are not "free" to marry your cousin or have multiple partners. You are not free to build a house where you want. Heck, you can't even go for a holiday to Cuba. Freedom of choice in your elections?.... Freedom to send your child to the school of your choice? To get the medical treatment you need? The job you want....... Those with money have choices but I don't see much freedom.

03-30-2004, 12:42 AM	#57
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Hm, Seems like nobody want to touch my question about killing a couple of Swedes while trying to catch some others? Didn't think so either... Peace/Freedom/Whatever Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

03-30-2004, 01:51 AM	#58
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	I guess nobody can visualize a scenario where the first two Swedes would have committed the murder, let alone killing innocent ones trying to track them down. It must be great to live in a country where no one harbours you any ill will Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

03-30-2004, 03:39 AM	#59
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	In heated debate, (or any debate!), the proponents focus can become blinkered, objectivism goes out the window! IMHO! ps, - Would it be alright to burn the bloody screensaver?

03-30-2004, 04:04 AM	#60
patscarr Pet Shark Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Back in Buffalo Posts: 5,455	Originally posted by Tiny Turtle If two Swedes kill an American, would it be justifiable to kill three innocent Swedes in order to catch the two murderes? I'll take a crack at it. I'll answer your hypothetical question with another one. If 1 crazy maniac blew up the Royal Palace in Stockholm, killing 1 person, then fled to Norway where the government there protected him, called him a hero, and encouraged other maniacs to do more of the same, what would you want your Swedish governement to do? Originally posted by cjmaddy ps, - Would it be alright to burn the bloody screensaver? Hey, as long as you pay for your copy, you can do whatever you want with it. Right Reichart? Patrick