Can we Have a WIP Thread?

[Jim Sachs]

Edgar - Will's converter doesn't handle sub-objects. It throws all the points into one root-level object.

Sergio - As Edgar says, the DX format can contain anything you want it to. The reader just ignores anything it doesn't understand. Regarding point order - all I can say is that this is vital. If I go into too much detail here, then all the other Aquarium programs will suddenly have realistic fish, and I'll be out of business.

[feldon34]

I've converted from 3D Studio Max to Jim's proprietary .X format successfully. You don't want to know how much PHP I had to write and experimenting it took to get this to happen.

[patscarr]

This is a very interesting thread and I hope you guys continue throwing ideas out, picking each other's brains. It's leading somewhere good.

[Sergiales]

Originally posted by Jim Sachs
As Edgar says, the DX format can contain anything you want it to. The reader just ignores anything it doesn't understand.

Being an open format (it sounds well), then by adapting Edgar's reader, perhaps we could get something...

Originally posted by Jim Sachs
If I go into too much detail here, then all the other Aquarium programs will suddenly have realistic fish, and I'll be out of business.

I think you are being a bit exaggerated. We could deal with this topic privately, if you prefer. Nowadays many people are sharing their source code, their ideas, working on open-source projects, improving their products each day. Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about going open-source. I repeat that all i (we) want is to break the lightwave import problem.
If not, then there is nothing more i can do, except for waiting.
You know my email address. If not: sfalbacete@hotmail.com.

Thanks.

[Ad_Enuff]

Originally posted by Sergiales
I repeat that all i (we) want is to break the lightwave import problem.

Sergio,

I'd like to thank you for your offer to help Jim. I'm glad that fans like yourself knowledgeable in programming is willing to put some time and effort to get this project back on track.

Again thank you.

[Jim Sachs]

Sergio - no I'm not exagerating. The differences between this Aquarium and all the rest are very subtle, but they make all the difference in the world. What makes Halle Berry so much more desirable than the girl next door? Both have the same basic equipment. Just a few millimeters of measurement or an imperceptable motion can mean that one is Catwoman and the other is pushing a shopping cart. Chaos Theory.

[Sergiales]

Jim,
I fully agree with you. Your salt water aquarium has a magic and beauty that no one else has. It has something that makes it special and unique. Definitively, it's a masterpiece.

Keep up the good work.

[Ad_Enuff]

OK, so where do we go from here? What do we need to do next?

[Jim Sachs]

Morgan and I have been in touch by Private Message. He may try his hand at creating a converter. What he needs is an original Lightwave object, and mock-up of what the final .X file would look like for that exact object. This is fairly time-consuming to create manually (which is exactly why I need the converter!), but I'll get to it when I can.

[Yodelking]

Hi, folks!
Today an update to LightWave was released:
LightWave® [8] Update 8.0.1 - 09/01/2004

I dind't understand if any of the fixes might help, but feel free to read here:
http://www.newtek.com/products/light...tes/lw801.html

/Peter

[Sergiales]

Peter,

Thank you for your input, but Lightwave isn't the problem. Actually, the problem is with the geometry conversion routine, which is a process that has nothing to do with Lightwave itself.

I explain it a bit more.
As you already know, the fishes in the screensaver are 3D Models (press the "W" key to see the wireframe structure). A 3D model is a set of vertices forming a figure. These vertices have grouping properties, like the polygon list and the texture mapping coordinates.

In Lightwave, one special property of a vertex (remember, a 3D point) is the "Selection set".
A selection is a set of 3D points forming a sub-object, like a "fish eye", or a "fish fin".
This information is relevant for Jim, but his converter is not able to handle that info. In other words, Jim is not able to use the selections previously created in Lightwave, and as stated before, it seems to be that it's vital if we want the Freshwater Aquarium to be done.

One option could be to have separated objects (eye, fin) and manage them like "parts" of a fish. But i think that Jim doesn' like this solution. The texture mapping could be a hell.

In summary, it seems to be that correcting that process is in Jim's and Morgan's hands, and now all we can do is wait.

I'm a big fan of this site, and I'm very sorry for saying that as seen in this thread, the FA is not coming any soon. This is something that all of us should clearly have in mind.

And i don't have much more to say. Have a nice weekend.

[Jim Sachs]

Currently, the parts of the fish are handled separately. This worked fine 4 years ago when 1024x768 was state-of-the-art, but as more and more people acquired 2000+ pixel systems, it was becoming obvious that the fins were not really attached to the body. My goal is to have just two parts: the body and the eyes.

[Sergiales]

Originally posted by Jim Sachs
Currently, the parts of the fish are handled separately.

And it looks great, isn't it?. If i remember well, the definition problem in MA is with the background, not with the fishes. The fishes look quite perfect, even with separated parts.

Originally posted by Jim Sachs
This worked fine 4 years ago when 1024x768 was state-of-the-art, but as more and more people acquired 2000+ pixel systems, it was becoming obvious that the fins were not really attached to the body.

Let's see if i'm understanding you properly. Are you talking about having just one mesh for the body? that is, including the fins and the tail in the same object?.
Newer games are still using models formed by multiple objects. It is a bad idea to have a complex figure formed by only one mesh object for realtime animation purposes. But it's up to you.

Originally posted by Jim Sachs
My goal is to have just two parts: the body and the eyes.

If it is your goal, then go for it!.
I think that a truly realistic fish animation is based on biomechanic studies and fluid dynamics (since fishes are commonly affected by the water, which is their medium). What about creating a water flow inside the tank? I've seen it in many tanks (I don't know if this has been discussed before in the wish list thread). It would be funny.

Back to the topic. Morgan pointed out that you have in mind to apply inverse cinematic (IK). As far as i know, that animation technique requires a chain of bones (skeleton) attached to multiple objects (parts?) in the Lightwave model. Let me know if i'm wrong.
So, it's a real mistery what are the selection sets for. I don't know if you are going to apply some kind of realtime calculated movement to the fins and tail, or if it is defined statically in the Lightwave keyframer. It all sounds like science fiction...

And oh, yes, don't reply too accurately to my message if you think you are going to run out of business

[feldon34]

Originally posted by Jim Sachs
Currently, the parts of the fish are handled separately.

Originally posted by Sergiales
And it looks great, isn't it?. If i remember well, the definition problem in MA is with the background, not with the fishes. The fishes look quite perfect, even with separated parts.

Right now the fins 'scissor' through the body. It is not the most realistic animation. On some of the fish it is more obvious and it is more obvious on large screens. Yes, Jim is a perfectionist!

Originally posted by Sergiales
Let's see if i'm understanding you properly. Are you talking about having just one mesh for the body? that is, including the fins and the tail in the same object?.

Newer games are still using models formed by multiple objects. It is a bad idea to have a complex figure formed by only one mesh object for realtime animation purposes. But it's up to you.

Yes, many game developers are fumbling around in the dark trying to do this. But the most realistic games have 1 mesh for the body and do skeltal or keyframe animation.

Originally posted by Sergiales
So, it's a real mistery what are the selection sets for.

Because Jim does not trust a hunk of code written by someone else to handle IK. So I am fairly certain he plans to write something similar from scratch.

[Sergiales]

Originally posted by feldon28
Because Jim does not trust a hunk of code written by someone else to handle IK. So I am fairly certain he plans to write something similar from scratch.

Well, it sounds interesting. Not too obvious, but interesting anyway.

[Jim Sachs]

Sergio -

Yes, the idea is to just have one object, and move the points. (OK, two objects - it's still better to have the eyes separate.) Yes, I know that most computer games use separate objects for everything and I think it looks horrible. Parts rotate into each other instead of stretching the skin smoothly over the whole object. I've been on a campaign to wipe out this look for 4 years now. The fish body (including the tail and top fin) is already a single object. It's only the side and lower fins that now need to be incorporated into that object.

The starfish is a single object and it took several weeks to map the location of each vertex manually. Point selection sets would eliminate this step. "OK, time to start bending arm number 4 back toward the left. Let's see, the tip is point number 418, so I'll rotate that one .001 radians counter-clockwise based on a centerpoint located 1 inch back from the tip. The points slightly back on the arm, numbers 13 and 586, need to be rotated slightly less than the tip." ...and so on - you get the idea.

[ESHIREY]

WOW. Talk about a lot of work.

[Edgar]

I think Sergio is talking about using bones, like a skeleton, to move the points in one mesh.
Each bone works like the selections set, so if the bone rotates, the vertices that it indirectly contains moves with it. Each bone may share vertices and they are called weighted vertices. So some bones can affect some vertices more than the others.
That is currently what Video Games are using to animate their 3D Characters.
I don't know if LightWave support the same bone animation that 3DS Max. I am trying to support this method on Sharks now.
I think it will work.

[Sergiales]

Jim, i get the idea, and find it sincerely fantastic, since points transformation (mesh deformation) adds realism. It is quite obvious that the starfish needed a technique like that.

As Eshirey said, the manual technique you commented seems to require a lot of work, patience, and testing, until you see the starfish moving properly. It is a bit rudimentary (please don't get me wrong, i'm not criticizing your work in any way), but as we can see, it works very well.

Now i'm just figuring out what the selection sets are for.

I distinguish two types of animation (please let me know if i'm wrong with this):
- Keyframing animation, also called offline animation. It consists of "key-frames" containing different model transformations. A frame between two consecutive "key-frames" is calculated as a transition of both (interpolation).
- Dynamic animation, also called online animation. This is where magic takes place . The model is moved, rotated, scaled and deformed in a free way. This often implies math calcs behind the movement. This is a powerful feature if you want your 3D model to express something, like feelings or gestures.

A right balanced usage of both types results in an optimal relation between the effort applied and the realism obtained.

Jim, i suppose you are using keyframing animation for some sequences, like when the fishes swim. Nevertheless the starfish uses dynamic animation, and this is what i find really interesting.

Edgar, i wish you the best luck implementing that dynamic animation technique. If i could help, let me know.

Jim, i also hope that you achieve what you have in mind. Go for the selection sets!!

[feldon34]

Jim is not interested in keyframe animation or the huge file sizes this results in. The fish in the Marine Aquarium have 2 keyframes.