New Fish Models - Page 4

Tiny Turtle · 08-03-2009, 05:11 PM

Yellow Tang - First and Last and Always! - Best in show since 2000...

Jim Sachs · 08-03-2009, 07:13 PM

I just hope all the work I'm putting into it actually shows when I get it in the tank. The texture is twice the dimensions of the old one (4X the number of pixels). Part of the realism of the old version came from the false shading around the belly area (the shading was simply part of the texture). I can't do that any more, because the fish will now be able to bank, and even turn completely upside-down if they wish. It would look unrealistic if the shadows remained on the lower side during such maneuvers.

Jav400 · 08-03-2009, 07:21 PM

Well I wouldn't expect to see loops or barrel rolls, but it sounds like it should pay off.

bullfrog · 08-04-2009, 06:01 AM

WHAT!!! no loops and barrel rolls

Jav400 · 08-04-2009, 06:43 AM

Nope, but a hammerhead might fit with the genre nicely.

I like the tail slide part before they kick it over.

Yellow Tang · 08-04-2009, 09:21 AM

Originally posted by Tiny Turtle:

Yellow Tang - First and Last and Always! - Best in show since 2000...

Well said!

cjmaddy · 08-04-2009, 10:20 AM

Well said, YT. - I didn't think it would be long before we had a comment like that!

Jim Sachs · 08-05-2009, 06:00 PM

I've got a rudimentary version of the new Yellow Tang model in the tank and have been doing a lot of experiments with it. There's no movement yet, but I can rotate the model. The first thing I found is that my new 256x256 texture is completely wasted on a fish this size. I resized the texture back to 128x128, and if anything, it actually seems to show MORE detail. No reason to have a 65k texture for any fish that can do just as well with a 17k pic.

As some have pointed out, the Yellow Tang was already probably the most realistic fish, so the differences in the new model are not dramatic. The shape is more accurate, with a thinning of the face between the eyes and the mouth. The spines in the fins show up better. The side fins are now attached to a mound on the body, and are not just "free-floating" as they were before. The "tang" (the sharp whte razor near the tail) now actually protrudes instead of just residing in the texture.

But on an object this size the visual changes are subtle, just setting the stage for the new movement algorithms. That's when the little guy should really come to life.

feldon34 · 08-05-2009, 06:03 PM

Sounds like you've really got the detail you wanted to.

Have you tried running this new prototype at 1920 x 1080? I picked up a 24" Acer that runs this resolution for $250.

Jim Sachs · 08-05-2009, 06:15 PM

My resolution is always 1920x1200.

sunny · 08-20-2009, 09:37 PM

Hi Jim,

Would it be possible to have multiple color selection on the percula clownfish since you're remaking the fish models?

Jim Sachs · 08-21-2009, 12:37 AM

The different species of Clownfish really have different shapes, so they will require several models. Some day.

rctneil · 02-08-2010, 04:11 PM

Hey Jim, Didn't want to start a new topic but just wanted to see how you were getting on with thr new models and behaviors? See how your doing getting over the problems you were experiencing?

Jim Sachs · 02-08-2010, 09:36 PM

Not doing well at all. Stuck.

The Old Man · 02-09-2010, 04:28 AM

Sorry to hear you are stuck, its been such a long time since any updates. Keep the faith!

Its a shame you can't team up with a third party software development company or take on some staff with you in charge of a development team. I'm sure it would help get the product moving quicker and the experience and knowledge would be there amongst a team to allow the aquarium to benefit from the latest technologies that are out there like DX10 and DX11 which are supposed to make things easier to program and better, more lifelike in appearance. You'd have people to consult with and be able to offload sticky areas, owners of the latest PC's would find the screensaver makes better use of their computers, the screensaver would look better and would have a final release out a lot quicker.

I'm sure though you must have considered it many times and there must be real world obstacles that have prevented you going this route ie, if it were so easy you would have gone that route already.

Yodelking · 02-09-2010, 10:45 AM

But are you still trying? Any thought of taking a little pause in the movement, and perhaps let something in the background come to live? Sometimes a small pause helps.

Jim Sachs · 02-09-2010, 11:05 AM

The only reason Marine Aquarium has been so successful is that it's a one-man operation. Over the years, major software companies have assembled teams to try to duplicate it. The two largest companies abandoned the project after a few months (one ended up licensing mine). I have worked on such teams - Cinemaware, for example - and in my opinion, it's difficult or impossible for a collection of individuals to really produce anything great. They are far too concerned with politics and power-trips. It always comes down to "Who are the monkeys?" The programmers see themselves as the geniuses, creating elegant algorithms which only need some monkeys to throw some pixels together so that their creation can be displayed on a computer screen. The artists have the opposite viewpoint. They see themselves as the Creators of magnificent visuals, and only need a few monkey code-writers to move their animations around.

Each group battles for power, and is frustrated by the stupidity of the other, so very little real communication takes place. Only when the two types live in the same brain do they respect each other enough to accomplish much.

Dale · 02-09-2010, 11:25 AM

Jim, it's absolutely clear that you are the recognized expert in this area. It looks like you've spent 6 months or so on actual implementation.

Are you totally convinced that what you envision, is practical with today's off-the-shelf PC?

If so, why?

If not, then what would be necessary to prove whether it is or is not practical?

feldon34 · 02-09-2010, 12:14 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

The only reason Marine Aquarium has been so successful is that it's a one-man operation.

I believe the success of Marine Aquarium is based on the quality of the artwork and attention to detail. Do I think quality is exclusive to 1 person working alone? No.

There are just too many examples of extremely high quality movies, TV shows, software, games, etc. that were done by a small team of like-minded professionals with an artistic vision.

After 9 years, which is most likely?

A) It is impossible for a creative team built on mutual respect to produce a great product
B) Jim has simply had rotten luck in the teams he's been involved in.

And to Dale, I suggest looking at the best games released in the last 5 years. They are photorealistic, with incredible lifelike animation, motion, lighting. They are almost indistinguishable from film. Today's computers can handle anything we want to throw at them.

Vinz Clortho · 02-09-2010, 12:33 PM

Hi everybody.

So, one way to move forward (possibly), is to sacrifice compatibility with older computers and raise the system requirements to something like 2 GHz processor, 128MB graphics, 1GB RAM? Just a thought, and might not be part of the vision of Mr Sachs.

08-03-2009, 05:11 PM	#61
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Yellow Tang - First and Last and Always! - Best in show since 2000... Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

08-03-2009, 07:13 PM	#62
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,789	I just hope all the work I'm putting into it actually shows when I get it in the tank. The texture is twice the dimensions of the old one (4X the number of pixels). Part of the realism of the old version came from the false shading around the belly area (the shading was simply part of the texture). I can't do that any more, because the fish will now be able to bank, and even turn completely upside-down if they wish. It would look unrealistic if the shadows remained on the lower side during such maneuvers. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

08-03-2009, 07:21 PM	#63
Jav400 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 9,725	Well I wouldn't expect to see loops or barrel rolls, but it sounds like it should pay off. Michael Administrator of Inside:SereneScreen Aquarium Forum, Chatroom, Fan Site & *Gallery* DVD Collection

08-04-2009, 06:43 AM	#65
Jav400 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 9,725	Nope, but a hammerhead might fit with the genre nicely. I like the tail slide part before they kick it over. Michael Administrator of Inside:SereneScreen Aquarium Forum, Chatroom, Fan Site & *Gallery* DVD Collection

08-05-2009, 06:00 PM	#68
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,789	I've got a rudimentary version of the new Yellow Tang model in the tank and have been doing a lot of experiments with it. There's no movement yet, but I can rotate the model. The first thing I found is that my new 256x256 texture is completely wasted on a fish this size. I resized the texture back to 128x128, and if anything, it actually seems to show MORE detail. No reason to have a 65k texture for any fish that can do just as well with a 17k pic. As some have pointed out, the Yellow Tang was already probably the most realistic fish, so the differences in the new model are not dramatic. The shape is more accurate, with a thinning of the face between the eyes and the mouth. The spines in the fins show up better. The side fins are now attached to a mound on the body, and are not just "free-floating" as they were before. The "tang" (the sharp whte razor near the tail) now actually protrudes instead of just residing in the texture. But on an object this size the visual changes are subtle, just setting the stage for the new movement algorithms. That's when the little guy should really come to life. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

08-04-2009, 06:01 AM	#64
bullfrog Registered Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Montgomery, NY Posts: 10	WHAT!!! no loops and barrel rolls

08-04-2009, 09:21 AM	#66
Yellow Tang YT Join Date: Jan 2002 Tournaments Won: 1 Location: Germany Posts: 729	Originally posted by Tiny Turtle: Yellow Tang - First and Last and Always! - Best in show since 2000... Well said!

08-04-2009, 10:20 AM	#67
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	Well said, YT. - I didn't think it would be long before we had a comment like that!

08-05-2009, 06:03 PM	#69
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	Sounds like you've really got the detail you wanted to. Have you tried running this new prototype at 1920 x 1080? I picked up a 24" Acer that runs this resolution for $250. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

08-05-2009, 06:15 PM	#70
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,789	My resolution is always 1920x1200. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

08-20-2009, 09:37 PM	#71
sunny Registered Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Penang,Malaysia Posts: 277	Hi Jim, Would it be possible to have multiple color selection on the percula clownfish since you're remaking the fish models? .¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><(((º>° °o°°Oo°oO° ><(((°>° °<°)))><

08-21-2009, 12:37 AM	#72
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,789	The different species of Clownfish really have different shapes, so they will require several models. Some day. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

02-08-2010, 04:11 PM	#73
rctneil Registered Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 239	Hey Jim, Didn't want to start a new topic but just wanted to see how you were getting on with thr new models and behaviors? See how your doing getting over the problems you were experiencing?

02-08-2010, 09:36 PM	#74
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,789	Not doing well at all. Stuck. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

02-09-2010, 04:28 AM	#75
The Old Man Registered Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK Posts: 33	Sorry to hear you are stuck, its been such a long time since any updates. Keep the faith! Its a shame you can't team up with a third party software development company or take on some staff with you in charge of a development team. I'm sure it would help get the product moving quicker and the experience and knowledge would be there amongst a team to allow the aquarium to benefit from the latest technologies that are out there like DX10 and DX11 which are supposed to make things easier to program and better, more lifelike in appearance. You'd have people to consult with and be able to offload sticky areas, owners of the latest PC's would find the screensaver makes better use of their computers, the screensaver would look better and would have a final release out a lot quicker. I'm sure though you must have considered it many times and there must be real world obstacles that have prevented you going this route ie, if it were so easy you would have gone that route already. Bought MA3 Beta on previously for Vista and now running it on Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit with an Nvidia GTX650Ti powering a 22" monitor and it's stunning!

02-09-2010, 10:45 AM	#76
Yodelking yodeler Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Staffanstorp, Sweden Posts: 294	But are you still trying? Any thought of taking a little pause in the movement, and perhaps let something in the background come to live? Sometimes a small pause helps. Yodelking - För god att kolsyra!

02-09-2010, 11:05 AM	#77
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,789	The only reason Marine Aquarium has been so successful is that it's a one-man operation. Over the years, major software companies have assembled teams to try to duplicate it. The two largest companies abandoned the project after a few months (one ended up licensing mine). I have worked on such teams - Cinemaware, for example - and in my opinion, it's difficult or impossible for a collection of individuals to really produce anything great. They are far too concerned with politics and power-trips. It always comes down to "Who are the monkeys?" The programmers see themselves as the geniuses, creating elegant algorithms which only need some monkeys to throw some pixels together so that their creation can be displayed on a computer screen. The artists have the opposite viewpoint. They see themselves as the Creators of magnificent visuals, and only need a few monkey code-writers to move their animations around. Each group battles for power, and is frustrated by the stupidity of the other, so very little real communication takes place. Only when the two types live in the same brain do they respect each other enough to accomplish much. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium Last edited by Jim Sachs; 02-09-2010 at 08:50 PM.

02-09-2010, 11:25 AM	#78
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Jim, it's absolutely clear that you are the recognized expert in this area. It looks like you've spent 6 months or so on actual implementation. Are you totally convinced that what you envision, is practical with today's off-the-shelf PC? If so, why? If not, then what would be necessary to prove whether it is or is not practical?

02-09-2010, 12:14 PM	#79
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: The only reason Marine Aquarium has been so successful is that it's a one-man operation. I believe the success of Marine Aquarium is based on the quality of the artwork and attention to detail. Do I think quality is exclusive to 1 person working alone? No. There are just too many examples of extremely high quality movies, TV shows, software, games, etc. that were done by a small team of like-minded professionals with an artistic vision. After 9 years, which is most likely? A) It is impossible for a creative team built on mutual respect to produce a great product B) Jim has simply had rotten luck in the teams he's been involved in. And to Dale, I suggest looking at the best games released in the last 5 years. They are photorealistic, with incredible lifelike animation, motion, lighting. They are almost indistinguishable from film. Today's computers can handle anything we want to throw at them. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

02-09-2010, 12:33 PM	#80
Vinz Clortho Servant of Zool Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 21	Hi everybody. So, one way to move forward (possibly), is to sacrifice compatibility with older computers and raise the system requirements to something like 2 GHz processor, 128MB graphics, 1GB RAM? Just a thought, and might not be part of the vision of Mr Sachs.