Extending MA3's capabilities? - Page 4

feldon34 · 08-07-2012, 08:47 AM

One year you made what? $2m?

The Aquarium was the right product presented to the right audience at the right time. It could happen again.

Jim Sachs · 08-07-2012, 09:34 AM

Half that. Still great, and I'm not complaining. But the New Normal is $9 per hour since all the computer stores went out of business. Changes and additions to the product have made no difference at all. Advertising is the only thing that helps, but it's so expensive that it's only feasible if some other company picks up the tab.

Ralph · 08-07-2012, 03:37 PM

My two cents.. In my opinion.. MA3 with its 3D panning and a reduced number of fish should have been the base. Any movement of corral, the addition of the feather dusters, interactive clams, Harvey the eel, the starfish, specialty fish, should have been part of the "creature pack".
But.. we are where we are. How to now incorporate a creature pack would be a major challenge as it would entail at least a number of "new" to make it attractive.
Barring a totally new approach to fish movement I think MA3 is as complete as it will ever be. I would speculate that a totally new SS (butterfly?) would be a better investment of time

Bob · 08-07-2012, 04:15 PM

Not to re-open old wounds, Jim. But I think you might be able to up you income to $10 or $12 per hour by releasing a new product called "Marine Aquarium Live Wallpaper."

I know you rejected this idea when some one created a modification to allow this several years ago. I, for one, would pay full price for it.

Bob Frank

Jim Sachs · 08-07-2012, 06:29 PM

Ralph - I agree. It would have to be something new, with a very different look to attract any attention. Anything fish-related would be ignored as old-hat.

Bob - Thanks for the suggestion, but I don't think I'll be doing that. However, as I mentioned somewhere else, the Mindspark advertising connection has improved sales enough so that I might be adding a couple of freebee critters.

My official position on this background-addition subject is that I don't see how it could ever be good enough to fool anyone into believng that it's real. As a scientist, I try to keep an open mind, but just the fact that the underside of the surface would show is enough to (almost) certainly doom it to failure. I have never seen an algorithm which could realistically duplicate all the reflections/refraction/perturbations to achieve this - not in a software product or a $100-million movie. I solved the problem 12 years ago by positioning the camera so that the problem area was not visible, and don't see any good reason to re-open the can of worms.

hillover · 08-07-2012, 08:19 PM

Jim, you are justifiably proud of the science and artistry of Marine Aquarium, and you and the simulation are honored and respected.

From what you have written (please correct me if I'm wrong), you are saying that Marine Aquarium is finished and you do not intend to make any changes.

Will you be angry if someone attempts to modify or add to Marine Aquarium?

Yes, I know that is not a polite question - but I think it's important.

Yodelking · 08-08-2012, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

However, as I mentioned somewhere else, the Mindspark advertising connection has improved sales enough so that I might be adding a couple of freebee critters.

This sounds very lovely, Jim! And although I would be very happy to recieve a few freebee's, how about spending slightly longer on doing even a few more and charge $5-10?

As you wrote that there wasn't much increase in sales when you added the feather duster or eel, perhaps charging a small fee for the additions would help?

Jim Sachs · 08-09-2012, 08:10 AM

hillover -

No, I'm not saying that there will be no more changes to the Aquarium. Just the opposite - I'm saying that due to the slight increase in sales brought on by Mindspark, I plan to add some more creatures soon.

Regarding anger at others modifying the program - I really wish I could say I have none, but my wife tells me I've started grinding my teeth at night.

Yodelking -

The amount of work necessary for a Creature Pack compared to a few freebee creatures is not slight. It's probably at least an order of magnitude.

Jav400 · 08-09-2012, 01:11 PM

That might be true, but it's also the difference between charging for it and giving it away.

Nicki · 08-09-2012, 06:11 PM

Come on now everybody, if Jim wants to add new stuff for free then who are we to say he has to charge for it?

hillover · 08-09-2012, 07:28 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

hillover -

No, I'm not saying that there will be no more changes to the Aquarium. Just the opposite - I'm saying that due to the slight increase in sales brought on by Mindspark, I plan to add some more creatures soon.

Regarding anger at others modifying the program - I really wish I could say I have none, but my wife tells me I've started grinding my teeth at night.

Sorry I misunderstood, and thanks for the clarifications.

flipper · 08-10-2012, 07:06 AM

Here's a possibly last update to the old tech previous version of the mod. Energy into the system now only occurs over the bubble column so it'll take a minute or two to propagate to the rest of the surface. If all goes well it should look like the attached pic. Several control keys (doc'd in the readme) have also been added to tweak the settings some and change the view as you see fit.

There's also a new 2048 room texture attached.

There's plenty more to come if you guys want it, including DirectX9 HLSL shader based versions for the water surface that give you pixel level rendering and AAA title quality. And more mods than I know where to begin listing.

But you're going to have to make your voices heard. I'm just here to freely share and have fun, not pick a fight. So far no one's told me to go away, publically or privately. In fact, privately, it's been just the opposite.

cjmaddy · 08-10-2012, 10:07 AM

I think the idea has potential, but I also think that the water surface looks unreal and too distracting. In my opinion, the water surface would be better left out altogether.

hclarkjr · 09-02-2012, 07:17 AM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

hillover -

No, I'm not saying that there will be no more changes to the Aquarium. Just the opposite - I'm saying that due to the slight increase in sales brought on by Mindspark, I plan to add some more creatures soon.

Regarding anger at others modifying the program - I really wish I could say I have none, but my wife tells me I've started grinding my teeth at night.

Yodelking -

The amount of work necessary for a Creature Pack compared to a few freebee creatures is not slight. It's probably at least an order of magnitude.

glad to hear that there will be more updates to this. i have been using this for years and just now found the forums here. better late then never i guess!!

chrissfoot · 06-03-2013, 08:33 AM

I guess this has been abandoned now? It was looking like it had loads of potential, the plain background is the only reason this isn't my full time screensaver.

Jim Sachs · 06-10-2013, 03:40 PM

No, it's not abandoned. I hope to return to it soon, after some family issues are resolved.

f173696@rmqkr.net · 06-24-2013, 10:55 PM

Flipper - your work is amazing, thank you for breathing some life into this decade old program! Jim did some amazing work with this originally - maybe a fresh perspective was necessary to take it to the next level. All the best to you.

santa8936 · 06-30-2013, 02:05 PM

Flipper - THANK YOU! It has been quite awhile since I visited this forum. I have had the MA screen saver since the very beginning and I always come back to see if there are any updates. Your addition is fantastic. I can't get over how much more realistic it looks.
Jim - Thank you also for a great product and I look forward to anything new you see fit to add.

Remember to be good
Santa

IanD · 01-19-2023, 07:05 AM

MA is an amazing program that still holds me entranced to this day, however life seems to have planned other things for Jim and it seems extremely unlikely there will ever be any further major developments.

Flippers extension of MA is also a major achievement, however I think it gets its wow factor from providing a different perspective of the corals that adds to the illusion that it is solid 3D and not particularly from the background that I actually find a bit distracting. I wonder what it would look like with a blurry distant static view of other corals as a background, like a "tacky" wallpaper background on a real aquarium. It's a shame this wasn't able to be taken further as an experiment to see what was possible as an extension to an already existing program.

I'm not a programmer, but it seems like Flippers extension are like plugins to a main program that add functionality but can not do anything without that original program at its core. Consequently I don't understand the reluctance to encouraging those sort of extensions since they have the potential to garner additional or renewed interest in MA. Even if the extensions were free, they would be useless without purchasing MA, so the extensions could encourage more sales of MA. It should be understood that the extensions are not guaranteed to work in all situations but one can fall back to the already excellent MA and not lose anything, only potentially gain additional functionality.

Anyway, that's my amateur perspective as simply a member of the public who loves MA and would like to see some extensions too.

08-07-2012, 09:34 AM	#62
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	Half that. Still great, and I'm not complaining. But the New Normal is $9 per hour since all the computer stores went out of business. Changes and additions to the product have made no difference at all. Advertising is the only thing that helps, but it's so expensive that it's only feasible if some other company picks up the tab. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

08-07-2012, 06:29 PM	#65
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	Ralph - I agree. It would have to be something new, with a very different look to attract any attention. Anything fish-related would be ignored as old-hat. Bob - Thanks for the suggestion, but I don't think I'll be doing that. However, as I mentioned somewhere else, the Mindspark advertising connection has improved sales enough so that I might be adding a couple of freebee critters. My official position on this background-addition subject is that I don't see how it could ever be good enough to fool anyone into believng that it's real. As a scientist, I try to keep an open mind, but just the fact that the underside of the surface would show is enough to (almost) certainly doom it to failure. I have never seen an algorithm which could realistically duplicate all the reflections/refraction/perturbations to achieve this - not in a software product or a $100-million movie. I solved the problem 12 years ago by positioning the camera so that the problem area was not visible, and don't see any good reason to re-open the can of worms. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

08-08-2012, 11:30 AM	#67
Yodelking yodeler Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Staffanstorp, Sweden Posts: 294	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: However, as I mentioned somewhere else, the Mindspark advertising connection has improved sales enough so that I might be adding a couple of freebee critters. This sounds very lovely, Jim! And although I would be very happy to recieve a few freebee's, how about spending slightly longer on doing even a few more and charge $5-10? As you wrote that there wasn't much increase in sales when you added the feather duster or eel, perhaps charging a small fee for the additions would help? Yodelking - För god att kolsyra!

08-09-2012, 08:10 AM	#68
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	hillover - No, I'm not saying that there will be no more changes to the Aquarium. Just the opposite - I'm saying that due to the slight increase in sales brought on by Mindspark, I plan to add some more creatures soon. Regarding anger at others modifying the program - I really wish I could say I have none, but my wife tells me I've started grinding my teeth at night. Yodelking - The amount of work necessary for a Creature Pack compared to a few freebee creatures is not slight. It's probably at least an order of magnitude. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

08-09-2012, 01:11 PM	#69
Jav400 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 9,725	That might be true, but it's also the difference between charging for it and giving it away. Michael Administrator of Inside:SereneScreen Aquarium Forum, Chatroom, Fan Site & *Gallery* DVD Collection

08-07-2012, 08:47 AM	#61
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	One year you made what? $2m? The Aquarium was the right product presented to the right audience at the right time. It could happen again.

08-07-2012, 03:37 PM	#63
Ralph Retired Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Edmonton Alberta Ca Posts: 2,443	My two cents.. In my opinion.. MA3 with its 3D panning and a reduced number of fish should have been the base. Any movement of corral, the addition of the feather dusters, interactive clams, Harvey the eel, the starfish, specialty fish, should have been part of the "creature pack". But.. we are where we are. How to now incorporate a creature pack would be a major challenge as it would entail at least a number of "new" to make it attractive. Barring a totally new approach to fish movement I think MA3 is as complete as it will ever be. I would speculate that a totally new SS (butterfly?) would be a better investment of time

08-07-2012, 04:15 PM	#64
Bob Registered Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 103	Not to re-open old wounds, Jim. But I think you might be able to up you income to $10 or $12 per hour by releasing a new product called "Marine Aquarium Live Wallpaper." I know you rejected this idea when some one created a modification to allow this several years ago. I, for one, would pay full price for it. Bob Frank

08-07-2012, 08:19 PM	#66
hillover Registered Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 37	Jim, you are justifiably proud of the science and artistry of Marine Aquarium, and you and the simulation are honored and respected. From what you have written (please correct me if I'm wrong), you are saying that Marine Aquarium is finished and you do not intend to make any changes. Will you be angry if someone attempts to modify or add to Marine Aquarium? Yes, I know that is not a polite question - but I think it's important.

08-09-2012, 06:11 PM	#70
Nicki Sugar Plum Fairy Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Toronto Posts: 1,267	Come on now everybody, if Jim wants to add new stuff for free then who are we to say he has to charge for it? Run you clever boy. And remember...

08-09-2012, 07:28 PM	#71
hillover Registered Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 37	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: hillover - No, I'm not saying that there will be no more changes to the Aquarium. Just the opposite - I'm saying that due to the slight increase in sales brought on by Mindspark, I plan to add some more creatures soon. Regarding anger at others modifying the program - I really wish I could say I have none, but my wife tells me I've started grinding my teeth at night. Sorry I misunderstood, and thanks for the clarifications.

08-10-2012, 10:07 AM	#73
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	I think the idea has potential, but I also think that the water surface looks unreal and too distracting. In my opinion, the water surface would be better left out altogether.

09-02-2012, 07:17 AM	#74
hclarkjr Registered Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 13	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: hillover - No, I'm not saying that there will be no more changes to the Aquarium. Just the opposite - I'm saying that due to the slight increase in sales brought on by Mindspark, I plan to add some more creatures soon. Regarding anger at others modifying the program - I really wish I could say I have none, but my wife tells me I've started grinding my teeth at night. Yodelking - The amount of work necessary for a Creature Pack compared to a few freebee creatures is not slight. It's probably at least an order of magnitude. glad to hear that there will be more updates to this. i have been using this for years and just now found the forums here. better late then never i guess!!

06-03-2013, 08:33 AM	#75
chrissfoot Registered User Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1	I guess this has been abandoned now? It was looking like it had loads of potential, the plain background is the only reason this isn't my full time screensaver.

06-10-2013, 03:40 PM	#76
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	No, it's not abandoned. I hope to return to it soon, after some family issues are resolved. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

06-24-2013, 10:55 PM	#77
f173696@rmqkr.net Registered User Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1	thank you flipper Flipper - your work is amazing, thank you for breathing some life into this decade old program! Jim did some amazing work with this originally - maybe a fresh perspective was necessary to take it to the next level. All the best to you.

06-30-2013, 02:05 PM	#78
santa8936 Registered Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 3	Flipper - THANK YOU! It has been quite awhile since I visited this forum. I have had the MA screen saver since the very beginning and I always come back to see if there are any updates. Your addition is fantastic. I can't get over how much more realistic it looks. Jim - Thank you also for a great product and I look forward to anything new you see fit to add. Remember to be good Santa

01-19-2023, 07:05 AM	#79
IanD Registered Join Date: Oct 2020 Posts: 9	MA is an amazing program that still holds me entranced to this day, however life seems to have planned other things for Jim and it seems extremely unlikely there will ever be any further major developments. Flippers extension of MA is also a major achievement, however I think it gets its wow factor from providing a different perspective of the corals that adds to the illusion that it is solid 3D and not particularly from the background that I actually find a bit distracting. I wonder what it would look like with a blurry distant static view of other corals as a background, like a "tacky" wallpaper background on a real aquarium. It's a shame this wasn't able to be taken further as an experiment to see what was possible as an extension to an already existing program. I'm not a programmer, but it seems like Flippers extension are like plugins to a main program that add functionality but can not do anything without that original program at its core. Consequently I don't understand the reluctance to encouraging those sort of extensions since they have the potential to garner additional or renewed interest in MA. Even if the extensions were free, they would be useless without purchasing MA, so the extensions could encourage more sales of MA. It should be understood that the extensions are not guaranteed to work in all situations but one can fall back to the already excellent MA and not lose anything, only potentially gain additional functionality. Anyway, that's my amateur perspective as simply a member of the public who loves MA and would like to see some extensions too.