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[bozpool]

Originally posted by Dale:

Question: (Other than in a discussion of rules) In a public forum discussion, when an Administrator or Moderator expresses an opinion, should that opinion be given any more weight than the opinion of any other participant?  

Why would I not surprise you ask this?? From what I have reading your comments, threads on other days, you does like to justify yourself by giving advices to Jim, right?? And it appears that you’re saying Jim is the one who said no, no one would stop you from the insanity/deviance, not even administrator(s) whom have been done their great job a long times and surprisingly (to you) that Jim has not unhappy on them.

I don’t care your experience on other fora (being a moderator, senior members, whatsoever). This is the Prolifc’ products of supporting place which surprisingly (to you, again) that not just Jim’s work (Marine Aquarium Screensaver). Your overzealous “endeavors” have distracted me. To say the least, just leaved when you felt uncomfortable the admins has taken on the forum, and I doubt, without you, it would have any different.

[dom5885]

Originally posted by Dale:

I took a brief look at the Dream Aquarium forum, and easily see what you mean. I hope you don't mind a question.

As someone who has been there a while, to what do you attribute that difference?  

There has been so much activity since you asked the question, I am unsure that you will be interested in my answer. Anyway.....

I must acknowledge that both MA and DA are the creations of two extraordinary programmer / graphic artists, and I am not offering any opinion on the merits of one over the other. Similarly the forums that have built up around the products are different and will appeal more to some people than to others.

Here are the differences as I see them:

a) The creator of DA (Alan Kapler aka spidermonkey2001) is a one-man band. He is the sole programmer of his product and is the administrator of his web site and forum. There is no equivalent to feldon34, Edgar and Prolific Publishing.

b) The MA forum which started in Dec 2000 (?) is more mature than the DA forum which seems to have started in Dec 2005. Surprisingly, the difference in the number of registered members is only about 330 in favour of MA. The MA forum has developed into a 'meeting place' forum whereas the DA forum is still essentially one that is built around the DA product.

c) Unlike Jim who has an almost constant presence in the MA forum, Alan has a more disciplined approach to his forum (possibly because he has to earn money in a 'real' job elsewhere). He tends to visit suddenly, announce a new simulation feature (eg to add a Marble Angelfish with virtually an unlimited array of different patterns), handle and respond to the flurry of beta testing and then disappear when the product appears stable. He will occasionally visit (as he did early this week) to answer requests and attend to order / serial number problems. It might be months before he re-appears.

d) Like MA, the DA forum has a very small band of 'helpers', as distinct from beta testers. One, in particular (A.P. Wesseling) typifies the difference in attitude within the forums. He has produced a script that enables users to easily choose settings that control the fish size, school size plus much more. There has been minimal impact on Alan's time, and the forum members have been appreciative rather than hostile.

I continue to visit both forums daily. When and if something happens over at DA, SOMETHING happens! There is always activity here at MA, but I am not sure that it is any more productive.

[Dale]

Originally posted by dom5885:

There has been so much activity since you asked the question, I am unsure that you will be interested in my answer. ..  

I certainly am interested, and thanks for the insights.

[Nicki]

Dream Aquarium is lovely. Marine Aquarium is lovely. Alan and Jim get along fine and respect each others work. Dream Aquarium forum doesn't have a chat section, as dom5885 has pointed out. It's very probable that I'm not privy to the earlier stages of testing on DA forum, but I've been fortunate enough to spot a bug or two. And yes, Alan sometimes won't post for weeks. Here on SereneScreen we are priviledged to be in touch with Jim pretty much all the time. And we get to chat about other stuff too. It's all good.

[Wizwad]

I'll stand firmly behind Nicki with her comment. I was in fairly early in DA once its presence had been posted on this forum (along with Cliff and Ed and a few others), and testing there went pretty much as testing here has gone, up to version 3.

There have been periods of silence, and I confess I've not been active over there for ages, but when Alan has a new release things do stir up a bit.

But until recently, on this forum there has always been a low buzz in other parts of the board, what with having the coffee house, etc., where-as the DA forum is pretty much solely devoted to the DA software and suffers from that when nothing much appears to be going on.

[Yellow Tang]

Originally posted by feldon34:

Does anyone besides Dale and JohnWho feel that I have been unfair or insulting? I'd like to know.  

Morgan, you are one of the frendliest persons I have ever met online. There is no question you and Michael did a fantastic job over the last years here at feldoncentral. It is sad that some of the "old" guys like tiny, doc etc. are not active menbers anymore, time goes on, other things to do, reasons may vary.
I only hope Jim comes to the conclusion that he should focus more on the artist part of his work again (creatures, behavior, fish models).
All the other stuff of the last months (menus, music, logos) are somehow necessary, but definitely not worth the debate we used to see here every day.

[feldon34]

Originally posted by JohnWho:

OK, Dale - I can take a hint.

I'll stop bickering with you if you stop bickering with me!

 

impunity

[JohnWho]

Originally posted by Yellow Tang:

All the other stuff of the last months (menus, music, logos) are somehow necessary, but definitely not worth the debate we used to see here every day.  

Well, you'll have to take that up with the "PTB"s since that "other stuff" is exactly what we were being asked to comment on, so whether it was "worth the debate" is debatable.

[rant=on]
If folks found those portions of the discussions a bit distasteful, they should simply stay away from the threads. As Jim Sachs said in another thread "All of the infuriating nit-picking was actually an essential part of the process."

Frankly, it is unfortunate that some folks would make an issue over this. So what, for example, if it is extremely minor and "picky" that some sliders have "-"/"+" signs over them and some didn't. That is the kind of thing Jim wanted to know. He's the "bottom line" on this, and he made the decisions on whether to react to a "beta" comment or not. Why make it argumentative or contentious?

I'm very disappointed (not that some of you care, I'm sure) that the board staff allowed some members to belittle me when I was simply doing what Jim asked. In my opinion, good moderation would have stepped in and reminded all that the picky minutiae was part of the beta process and we should encourage people to point these things out, not discourage them. In this area I agree with feldon34 - some improvements in the beta testing process are needed.
[/rant=off]

[klind75997]

To JohnWho, yes your constant rants here with various people is very distracting and annoying! Before you all started to sound like this, comming to the forum was very helpfull to me. I have learned a lot from the various people on a variaty of computor topics as they were being explained with reagards to MA3. I love it. But this is very
dis-tastefull. If you want to get it on with the folks then please do so either privately or in a different thred. Your tone is making me seriously think about remaining a member, all though I will still upgrade the MA3 program as needed. We will see. Now stop it please!

[JohnWho]

No problem, klind75997.

I was in "rant" mode earlier - the "moving hand has ranted, and having ranted moves on" - life is good.

Please don't leave.

I agree with Jim -

we need to get the "serene" back on the scene.

I'll do my part from here on in.

[Dale]

It appears to me that the forum rules are not being enforced.

Does it appear to other forum participants that the rules are being enforced?

https://www.feldoncentral.com/forums...=&threadid=736

https://www.feldoncentral.com/forums...ead.php?t=1824

[feldon34]

We reserve the right to edit or delete or move any post on the forum without notification. We take no responsibility for anything posted on the forum. We reserve the right to suspend/ban any user at any time for any reason. All posts to the forum should be considered the OPINION of the author, and not necessarily that of the Forum Administrators/Moderators, Jim Sachs, SereneScreen, or Prolific, Inc.

Dale, you've used your posts to try to force me to take action on this forum several times. Sometimes, I've complied and made changes. It seems you want me to force my hand again, this time to change the rules to prohibit enough of your actions that eventually you give up and leave. It seems you measure success by how much you can force other people to do what you want.

About adding vague, impossible-to-define rules against harassment, disruption, etc. I thought those were just taken for granted as common sense. If you constantly dig and dig and dig at people to try to manipulate them to do what you want, eventually they will push back. I wasn't aware that had to be codified in a rule book somewhere.

A really good forum has great people who feel like a family and implicitly trust each other. Those forums have a short list of rules. So far, adding more and more rules and regulations has not had a positive effect on this forum whatsoever, except allowing people like you to keep looking for loopholes to justify your extremely disruptive behavior.


Dale, the next time you bring up rules, it's very likely that I will put this to a vote and be done with it. If that means I have to start paying forum this website myself, so be it. I'm ready to quit this site, and Michael submitted his resignation to me weeks ago over this issue.

[Jim Sachs]

Ok, new rule: Before posting, ask yourself, "Does anyone besides me have any interest in what I'm about to say?" I'll wager that not many people are attracted to the Forum to read complaints about rules not being applied properly, justifications of things that were previously said, etc.

[Dale]

I apologize if you took that as a personal attack. I did not intend it to be personal, however, I can see how you might have taken it that way.

I have no way to know what you and other administrators do by PM, etc. And I have repeatedly pointed out that you are entitled to do (or not do) whatever you wish.

I simply made a statement of how things appear to me, and attempted to find out if how things appear to me, is not how they appear to others. If things appear different to others, then my observation is incorrect. I'll publicly admit my incorrect observation.

Footnotes:
As a moderator/administrator elsewhere, it is valuable to me to get feedback from participants in my forums about how things appear to them, rather than how I think they are.

"All posts to the forum should be considered the OPINION of the author", and this post is not intended to be a personal attack on anybody. I do not consider it to be a "flame", nor is it intended to further disturb the peace of the forum.

[Dale]

Jim: It took me about an hour to write my reply, so I didn't read your new rule until after I posted it. I'll try to remember in the future.

[Nicki]

I'm deeply saddened to hear that we've lost Michael. He is, as my Auntie from Basingstoke would say, a top bloke.

[feldon34]

Originally posted by Nicki:

I'm deeply saddened to hear that we've lost Michael. He is, as my Auntie from Basingstoke would say, a top bloke.  

Michael (Jav400) hasn't left. I was just indicating that he didn't want to continue here if we were just going to allow the situation to continue.

[patscarr]

Originally posted by feldon34:

Does anyone besides Dale and JohnWho feel that I have been unfair or insulting? I'd like to know. I will not take action based on your posts in this thread. If you don't feel comfortable, send a PM to Jim Sachs.  

Morgan, for the most part, no, I do not think you are unfair nor insulting. Usually, you are very cordial, extremely informative, and helpful. However, you have been known to take digs at people from time to time, especially towards Prolific, and most recently, the "tone" in your posts has seemed a little "dark" over the past week or so. I hope that everything is OK and that you'll be back to your old self soon. Perhaps a vacation, from the forum, might help?

Dale is a great "active" addition to the Forum, but his endless nitpicking over irrelevant, unimportant, trivial minutiae, that nobody, not even Jim, cared about, such as beta vs non-beta, has had me biting my lip more than once. I can mostly just ignore it. I think he has been slightly insulted by you and others, but not totally undeserving since he never lets anything drop, not even well meaning advice to let "it" drop.

Just my 2 cents.

[jleslie]

I think that's a good 2c worth...