Marine Aquarium 3 Comments & Appreciation - Page 41

Dale · 12-26-2009, 09:26 PM

Thanks. I appreciate your explanation.

Jim has pointed out that Screen Savers really aren't necessary with modern display devices. That's essentially true.

To paraphrase, you're saying it's more elegant if a Screen Saver actually would save the screen (by regularly changing every pixel).

JohnWho · 12-27-2009, 08:31 AM

Originally posted by Dale:

To paraphrase, you're saying it's more elegant if a Screen Saver actually would save the screen (by regularly changing every pixel).

Well, pretty much - unless, of course, the pixels aren't on, such as a screen blanker or even some of the Windows default SS's like 3D Text.

As an aside, I have seen images "burned in" on LCD screens, so I know it is a possibility.

Ralph · 12-27-2009, 10:51 AM

I suspect a "true" screen saver would be one that turned the monitor off. Most monitors come with such a feature by way of a switch. Or, use the built in system that "turns monitor off in xx minutes". Anyone worried about burning in an image should consider that solution.
As Jim evidently intended, his aquarium was intended to be a "program". However, he realized it could easily made to start automatically by changing the extension from an *.exe to a *.scr. And for that most of us thank him.
Anyone hung up on this not being a true screen saver just remove the scr extension and replace it with an exe. Then make a short cut on your desktop to run the "program" at will.

Jim Sachs · 12-27-2009, 11:29 AM

LCD monitors are not susceptable to permanent burn-in. Temporary burn-in can be fixed by displaying pure white for a moment.

Has anyone noticed that nearly all TV networks display a permanent logo in the corner of the screen? They don't burn in because the image "jitters" around by a few pixels and people tend to change channels occasionally. Only a sharp-edged static image displayed continously for months or years could even produce a noticeable temporary burn-in on an LCD screen. If a user has a display so wide that there is no room left for even a few pixels of automatic scrolling, and insists on never turning the system off, they could still eliminate all possibility of burn-in by looking at something ELSE on their computer every few weeks

Rick Simon · 12-27-2009, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

LCD monitors are not susceptable to permanent burn-in. Temporary burn-in can be fixed by displaying pure white for a moment.

Hmmm... they do say time is relevant... It takes more than "a moment" to clear the persistence on one of my monitors. More like several minutes.

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

Only a sharp-edged static image displayed continously for months or years could even produce a noticeable temporary burn-in on an LCD screen.

Not true. I can have one on one of my monitors in less than a day, though it is dependent on the content of the screen. High contrast edges with high brightness levels cause the most problems.

Jim Sachs · 12-27-2009, 07:03 PM

What brand of monitor is that? My Philips, Sony and NEC monitors have had MA3 displayed for tens of thousands of hours, and previous versions for hundreds of thousands of hours without the slightest sign of burn-in.

Rick Simon · 12-27-2009, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

What brand of monitor is that? My Philips, Sony and NEC monitors have had MA3 displayed for tens of thousands of hours, and previous versions for hundreds of thousands of hours without the slightest sign of burn-in.

Viewsonic VA902b. I have a pair of them, purchased around 4 months apart. While both of them show some signs of persistence after an extended period of time, one of them is much worse at it than the other.

As far as not seeing any signs of it on your monitors, I don't doubt that at all. With MA2.6 it would never occur anyway due to the cycling lighting. With MA3 it shouldn't either due to the scrolling... unless... you have three monitors in a horizontal configuration such as my system. In a situation like that, there is no scrolling.

Jim Sachs · 12-27-2009, 08:10 PM

Actually, I never used automatic lighting. I just put it in for other people.

cjmaddy · 12-28-2009, 04:08 AM

I never used MA2.6's auto lighting, and I never use MA3's auto scrolling, - I have a pair of ViewSonic VP920, plus a VP171s on our other PC.
..... I have never seen ANY burn-in in over five years of using ViewSonic LCDs.

rctneil · 12-28-2009, 05:53 AM

I use MA3 over TWO Samsung 2032BW widescreen monitors and the aquarium never scrolls for me as it is as wide as it will go and I ahvn't experienced burn in so far and it's is displayed the majority of the time

Rick Simon · 12-28-2009, 06:08 AM

Originally posted by cjmaddy:

I never used MA2.6's auto lighting, and I never use MA3's auto scrolling, - I have a pair of ViewSonic VP920, plus a VP171s on our other PC.
..... I have never seen ANY burn-in in over five years of using ViewSonic LCDs.

And your point is...? Just because you have not seen it on your particular set up does NOT mean it doesn't happen, or that it isn't a problem for some users. As I pointed out in other threads on this same subject several months ago, persistence in LCD's is nowhere near as big a deal as burn-in was with older CRT monitors, but it DOES exist.

For the vast majority of users it will never become an issue. Either they have equipment which is resistant to persistence, or they have scrolling turned on which is enough to avoid it, or they simply never run MA3 long enough to encounter it. In any case, with such a small population of affected users, it is understandable that Jim has pushed the lighting requests further down on the to-do list than his current efforts.

cjmaddy · 12-28-2009, 06:45 AM

My point is..... That burn-in is not, and never has been, a problem! .... (In my experience, with ALL the LCDs that I've used.)

Every LCD that I have ever seen and set-up has had 'out-of-the-box' brightness that was enough to burn your eyeballs out! - BUT.....

When brightness settings etc have been correctly adjusted, I shouldn't think that ANY burn-in will be experienced, - in average/normal use.
Tweaking brightness settings is vital, IMO. - Out of the box, it is MUCH too bright! - It will hurt your eyes.... as well as your LCD screen!

Rick Simon · 12-28-2009, 07:30 AM

Originally posted by cjmaddy:

When brightness settings etc have been correctly adjusted, I shouldn't think that ANY burn-in will be experienced, - in average/normal use.
Tweaking brightness settings is vital, IMO. - Out of the box, it is MUCH too bright! - It will hurt your eyes.... as well as your LCD screen!

That depends on what you consider to be "average/normal use". Not to be contrary here, but the difference in ambient lighting between the average home office/den, and an office cubicle under multiple flourescents, can make a huge difference in what brightness level is desirable. And then there is the matter of lots of novice computer users who never realize that there even ARE brightness controls on their monitors. The vast majority of customers I run across have never done any sort of adjusting on their LCD's. They just pull them out of the box, plug them in, turn them on, watch the screen say something about "auto adjusting", and then never touch anything other than the power button from there on out.

cjmaddy · 12-28-2009, 08:02 AM

If there are, "lots of novice computer users who never realize that there even ARE brightness controls on their monitors", then the problem is with those users, not their LCDs!

JohnWho · 12-28-2009, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by Rick Simon:

And your point is...? Just because you have not seen it on your particular set up does NOT mean it doesn't happen, or that it isn't a problem for some users. As I pointed out in other threads on this same subject several months ago, persistence in LCD's is nowhere near as big a deal as burn-in was with older CRT monitors, but it DOES exist.

I concur.

I have seen a few monitors (don't remember brand/models) of PC LCD screens that had what appeared to be permanent images "burned on" to the screen. Maybe, if sent back to the manufactures, the images could have been removed or worked out. Dunno.

Perhaps, though, they weren't really "burned in" in the same manner as on a CRT, but more "burned out" - meaning the LCD pixels that were continuously on in the exact same state no longer burn as bright as the surrounding ones.

Does that match what you've seen, Rick?

More specific to MA3 beta, I do not believe that even continuous running of MA3 in "pan" mode would ever do this, although any long term issue of a "steady state" of a group of pixels on an LCD screen could be a problem. It appears to me that only a small area along the upper left hand top edge of the screen is not being refreshed or changed by fish movements, and this will be remedied by the proposed future changes to MA.

Dale · 12-28-2009, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by cjmaddy:

If there are, "lots of novice computer users who never realize that there even ARE brightness controls on their monitors", then the problem is with those users, not their LCDs!

How would you fix that problem?

cjmaddy · 12-28-2009, 10:03 AM

RTBM?

ESHIREY · 12-28-2009, 10:38 AM

WOW. I haven't heard of the burn in on LCD'S. I have 3 monitors and on the right and the left ones they always have the same thing showing all the time. And no burn in. Not even a trace. On the other hand now Plasma screens are the worst for burn in. You couldn't give me one of those no matter what brand they are.

Dale · 12-28-2009, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by cjmaddy:

If there are, "lots of novice computer users who never realize that there even ARE brightness controls on their monitors", then the problem is with those users, not their LCDs!

I asked how you would fix that problem, and you answered "RTBM".

Are you suggesting that there is a manual about computer users that I should read - which would fix the problem?

Or, if you're suggesting that there's some way to force computer users to read the manuals - which would fix the problem?

It's easy to say that "those people" are the problem, if you don't have to provide a solution. Or if "just ignore reality" is a rational solution.

I'm just asking how you would fix the problem that you stated.

cjmaddy · 12-28-2009, 11:26 AM

Dale, I think the best thing I can do is to quote your own words, and tell you to, "just shut up" ... period!

12-27-2009, 11:29 AM	#804
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,788	LCD monitors are not susceptable to permanent burn-in. Temporary burn-in can be fixed by displaying pure white for a moment. Has anyone noticed that nearly all TV networks display a permanent logo in the corner of the screen? They don't burn in because the image "jitters" around by a few pixels and people tend to change channels occasionally. Only a sharp-edged static image displayed continously for months or years could even produce a noticeable temporary burn-in on an LCD screen. If a user has a display so wide that there is no room left for even a few pixels of automatic scrolling, and insists on never turning the system off, they could still eliminate all possibility of burn-in by looking at something ELSE on their computer every few weeks Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

12-27-2009, 07:03 PM	#806
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,788	What brand of monitor is that? My Philips, Sony and NEC monitors have had MA3 displayed for tens of thousands of hours, and previous versions for hundreds of thousands of hours without the slightest sign of burn-in. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

12-27-2009, 08:10 PM	#808
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,788	Actually, I never used automatic lighting. I just put it in for other people. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

12-28-2009, 10:38 AM	#818
ESHIREY Smilie Dragon Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lebanon, PA Posts: 4,725	WOW. I haven't heard of the burn in on LCD'S. I have 3 monitors and on the right and the left ones they always have the same thing showing all the time. And no burn in. Not even a trace. On the other hand now Plasma screens are the worst for burn in. You couldn't give me one of those no matter what brand they are. Thank you for taking the time to read this.

12-26-2009, 09:26 PM	#801
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Thanks. I appreciate your explanation. Jim has pointed out that Screen Savers really aren't necessary with modern display devices. That's essentially true. To paraphrase, you're saying it's more elegant if a Screen Saver actually would save the screen (by regularly changing every pixel).

12-27-2009, 08:31 AM	#802
JohnWho Registered Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Tampa Bay Area, Florida Posts: 486	Originally posted by Dale: To paraphrase, you're saying it's more elegant if a Screen Saver actually would save the screen (by regularly changing every pixel). Well, pretty much - unless, of course, the pixels aren't on, such as a screen blanker or even some of the Windows default SS's like 3D Text. As an aside, I have seen images "burned in" on LCD screens, so I know it is a possibility.

12-27-2009, 10:51 AM	#803
Ralph Retired Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Edmonton Alberta Ca Posts: 2,441	I suspect a "true" screen saver would be one that turned the monitor off. Most monitors come with such a feature by way of a switch. Or, use the built in system that "turns monitor off in xx minutes". Anyone worried about burning in an image should consider that solution. As Jim evidently intended, his aquarium was intended to be a "program". However, he realized it could easily made to start automatically by changing the extension from an .exe to a .scr. And for that most of us thank him. Anyone hung up on this not being a true screen saver just remove the scr extension and replace it with an exe. Then make a short cut on your desktop to run the "program" at will.

12-27-2009, 03:15 PM	#805
Rick Simon Registered Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 93	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: LCD monitors are not susceptable to permanent burn-in. Temporary burn-in can be fixed by displaying pure white for a moment. Hmmm... they do say time is relevant... It takes more than "a moment" to clear the persistence on one of my monitors. More like several minutes. Originally posted by Jim Sachs: Only a sharp-edged static image displayed continously for months or years could even produce a noticeable temporary burn-in on an LCD screen. Not true. I can have one on one of my monitors in less than a day, though it is dependent on the content of the screen. High contrast edges with high brightness levels cause the most problems.

12-27-2009, 07:23 PM	#807
Rick Simon Registered Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 93	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: What brand of monitor is that? My Philips, Sony and NEC monitors have had MA3 displayed for tens of thousands of hours, and previous versions for hundreds of thousands of hours without the slightest sign of burn-in. Viewsonic VA902b. I have a pair of them, purchased around 4 months apart. While both of them show some signs of persistence after an extended period of time, one of them is much worse at it than the other. As far as not seeing any signs of it on your monitors, I don't doubt that at all. With MA2.6 it would never occur anyway due to the cycling lighting. With MA3 it shouldn't either due to the scrolling... unless... you have three monitors in a horizontal configuration such as my system. In a situation like that, there is no scrolling.

12-28-2009, 04:08 AM	#809
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	I never used MA2.6's auto lighting, and I never use MA3's auto scrolling, - I have a pair of ViewSonic VP920, plus a VP171s on our other PC. ..... I have never seen ANY burn-in in over five years of using ViewSonic LCDs.

12-28-2009, 05:53 AM	#810
rctneil Registered Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 239	I use MA3 over TWO Samsung 2032BW widescreen monitors and the aquarium never scrolls for me as it is as wide as it will go and I ahvn't experienced burn in so far and it's is displayed the majority of the time

12-28-2009, 06:08 AM	#811
Rick Simon Registered Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 93	Originally posted by cjmaddy: I never used MA2.6's auto lighting, and I never use MA3's auto scrolling, - I have a pair of ViewSonic VP920, plus a VP171s on our other PC. ..... I have never seen ANY burn-in in over five years of using ViewSonic LCDs. And your point is...? Just because you have not seen it on your particular set up does NOT mean it doesn't happen, or that it isn't a problem for some users. As I pointed out in other threads on this same subject several months ago, persistence in LCD's is nowhere near as big a deal as burn-in was with older CRT monitors, but it DOES exist. For the vast majority of users it will never become an issue. Either they have equipment which is resistant to persistence, or they have scrolling turned on which is enough to avoid it, or they simply never run MA3 long enough to encounter it. In any case, with such a small population of affected users, it is understandable that Jim has pushed the lighting requests further down on the to-do list than his current efforts.

12-28-2009, 06:45 AM	#812
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	My point is..... That burn-in is not, and never has been, a problem! .... (In my experience, with ALL the LCDs that I've used.) Every LCD that I have ever seen and set-up has had 'out-of-the-box' brightness that was enough to burn your eyeballs out! - BUT..... When brightness settings etc have been correctly adjusted, I shouldn't think that ANY burn-in will be experienced, - in average/normal use. Tweaking brightness settings is vital, IMO. - Out of the box, it is MUCH too bright! - It will hurt your eyes.... as well as your LCD screen!

12-28-2009, 07:30 AM	#813
Rick Simon Registered Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 93	Originally posted by cjmaddy: When brightness settings etc have been correctly adjusted, I shouldn't think that ANY burn-in will be experienced, - in average/normal use. Tweaking brightness settings is vital, IMO. - Out of the box, it is MUCH too bright! - It will hurt your eyes.... as well as your LCD screen! That depends on what you consider to be "average/normal use". Not to be contrary here, but the difference in ambient lighting between the average home office/den, and an office cubicle under multiple flourescents, can make a huge difference in what brightness level is desirable. And then there is the matter of lots of novice computer users who never realize that there even ARE brightness controls on their monitors. The vast majority of customers I run across have never done any sort of adjusting on their LCD's. They just pull them out of the box, plug them in, turn them on, watch the screen say something about "auto adjusting", and then never touch anything other than the power button from there on out.

12-28-2009, 08:02 AM	#814
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	If there are, "lots of novice computer users who never realize that there even ARE brightness controls on their monitors", then the problem is with those users, not their LCDs!

12-28-2009, 09:23 AM	#815
JohnWho Registered Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Tampa Bay Area, Florida Posts: 486	Originally posted by Rick Simon: And your point is...? Just because you have not seen it on your particular set up does NOT mean it doesn't happen, or that it isn't a problem for some users. As I pointed out in other threads on this same subject several months ago, persistence in LCD's is nowhere near as big a deal as burn-in was with older CRT monitors, but it DOES exist. I concur. I have seen a few monitors (don't remember brand/models) of PC LCD screens that had what appeared to be permanent images "burned on" to the screen. Maybe, if sent back to the manufactures, the images could have been removed or worked out. Dunno. Perhaps, though, they weren't really "burned in" in the same manner as on a CRT, but more "burned out" - meaning the LCD pixels that were continuously on in the exact same state no longer burn as bright as the surrounding ones. Does that match what you've seen, Rick? More specific to MA3 beta, I do not believe that even continuous running of MA3 in "pan" mode would ever do this, although any long term issue of a "steady state" of a group of pixels on an LCD screen could be a problem. It appears to me that only a small area along the upper left hand top edge of the screen is not being refreshed or changed by fish movements, and this will be remedied by the proposed future changes to MA.

12-28-2009, 09:52 AM	#816
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by cjmaddy: If there are, "lots of novice computer users who never realize that there even ARE brightness controls on their monitors", then the problem is with those users, not their LCDs! How would you fix that problem?

12-28-2009, 10:03 AM	#817
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	RTBM?

12-28-2009, 11:18 AM	#819
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by cjmaddy: If there are, "lots of novice computer users who never realize that there even ARE brightness controls on their monitors", then the problem is with those users, not their LCDs! I asked how you would fix that problem, and you answered "RTBM". Are you suggesting that there is a manual about computer users that I should read - which would fix the problem? Or, if you're suggesting that there's some way to force computer users to read the manuals - which would fix the problem? It's easy to say that "those people" are the problem, if you don't have to provide a solution. Or if "just ignore reality" is a rational solution. I'm just asking how *you* would fix the problem that *you* stated.

12-28-2009, 11:26 AM	#820
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	Dale, I think the best thing I can do is to quote your own words, and tell you to, "just shut up" ... period!