Marine Aquarium 3 Beta INSTALLER test - Page 5

Dale · 01-29-2009, 10:18 AM

All three of the logos that I've done, work fine in MA3. But I understand the points you make, Jim.

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

Dale - I'm not avoiding installer questions. I've never dealt with one, so I simply don't know. Someone at Prolific is doing the installer.

Yes, I understood that Prolific is doing the installer. But, in my opinion, testing an installer is quite substantially different from incrementally testing features being added (and unexpected problems being subtracted) to a simulation like MA3. Especially where personal perception is a vital part of the testing.

My point is that when I ask someone to test something complex (like an installer), I ask them to find out if it does all of the things that it's supposed to do (in all specified environments), and does not do anything it's specified to not do, and also to tell me if they notice it doing anything they think is "strange".

Some things, also, are only capable of being tested once (per environment) - like flash bulbs, and installers. Running the installer clearly changes the environment.

At the moment, the complex installer is being tested by lots of folks using personal criteria, and the testing is based on "random" environments and initial conditions. The results are valuable, of course - but there's limited value in "works OK here as far as I can see".

And, of course, everybody who has already tested the installer will not be able to (easily) test future iterations of the installer under the same conditions.

I'm quite willing to test the installer as thoroughly as I can, in whatever starting environments I can honestly duplicate on six computers.

But: (1) I'm not anxious to CHANGE those starting environments by running the installer before it's fully baked; (2) I would really like to know what the installer is supposed to do, before I tell them if it does.

As you said, Jim - somebody at Prolific will have to let us know how to test the installer - otherwise, we're just doing random testing that will find a few of the problems.

=============

Footnote: we could also "evaluate" whether the installer DESIGN does the "correct" things. To do that, we would need to know whether MA3 is going to be marketed as an update/upgrade to MA2.6 - or as a new MA that does not "replace" MA2.6. The installer would do different things (to a MA2.6 installation) in those two cases.

Jim, perhaps you know the answer to that one?

feldon34 · 01-29-2009, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by Dale:

Footnote: we could also "evaluate" whether the installer DESIGN does the "correct" things. To do that, we would need to know whether MA3 is going to be marketed as an update/upgrade to MA2.6 - or as a new MA that does not "replace" MA2.6. The installer would do different things (to a MA2.6 installation) in those two cases.

Jim, perhaps you know the answer to that one?

You have already been given the answer to that question, Dale.

Jim Sachs · 01-29-2009, 10:35 AM

MA3 has no knowledge of MA2.6. They are totally different programs with different capabilities and system requirements.

feldon34 · 01-29-2009, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by Xylem:

Feldon; thanks for info on logos. I notice that one of your groups is mostly religous in nature. What's the possiblity that you could add one like those attached to your list? Just wondering. btw, do I just insert the pic in the MA3 folder, or is there some other method of install? Thanks....

I might expand the Logo pack or allow individual downloads of logos or even write a Logo loader for people to download and install logos into their MA3 from my website.

My only concern about the 2 specific logos you posted is they do not have enough blank space on the sides, so they will bleed off the crystal.

Right now, MA3 is still a test, so it only supports having one logo file named AltLogo.png placed in the same folder as the Aquarium itself. You switch to this logo by typing "L". MA3 will eventually have a Logo picker. Then you'll be able to load several logos into the Aquarium and pick from them. MA3 will also apparently add some fine-tune controls to resize any logo you bring into the program so that it fits well on the crystal, in case it was not designed to be "crystal safe".

Dale · 01-29-2009, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by feldon32:

You have already been given the answer to that question, Dale.

Sorry, I must have missed it. Could you point me to it, please? Or just say what it was?

(I tried a search but couldn't find the right place, I guess)

Thanks.

Jim Sachs · 01-29-2009, 11:51 AM

Dale - MA3 has no knowledge of MA2.6. It doesn't replace it. Honest.

philosopher · 01-29-2009, 12:27 PM

Jim,

I noticed the posts between Rick and yourself about fan movement.

I just recently helped a person at my workplace download the 8k beta with installer and run it on a desktop with 4 screens attached.

The screens are set up as two on top and two on the bottom. We were running the screen saver to not show the same image on all screens so it was split with the top half on the two top screens and the bottom half on the two bottom screens. Scrolling left and right was therefore active.

The fan and Gorgonia (am I spelling that right?) both had motion on the bottom two screens but the top halves were still.

I hope that information helps.

If you'd like more info - screen #'s graphic cards, etc. I can certainly get it. But the system in question is across the cube forest. But I'll certainly make a special trip if that info will help.

dwax · 01-29-2009, 12:43 PM

How do the beta testers get a key code?

Dale · 01-29-2009, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

Dale - MA3 has no knowledge of MA2.6. It doesn't replace it. Honest.

OK, Got it. So, from your viewpoint, MA3 installation shouldn't depend on anything about MA2.6, and need not mess up MA2.6.

[Sorry, I thought I recalled some MA3 troubleshooting advice that involved deleting some MA2.6 registry stuff, which implied a relationship]

Therefore, testing the MA3 Installer could be independent of previous environment involving MA2.6 - and only depend on any previous MA3 environment (or previous runs of the MA3 installer).

But, Jim, you are answering the technical question about the simulator -- NOT the question about the installer. The installation program COULD take notice of (and do something to/with) a previous MA2.6 installation. As you have pointed out, you aren't doing the installer. So my questions about the installer are really questions for Prolific.

Why does that make a difference?

You state that MA3 doesn't replace MA2.6 (and you are technically correct, of course).

HOWEVER: The SereneScreen website is now offering a MA V3.0 Upgrade.

The "accepted" definition (and Microsoft's, if it matters) of Upgrade is:

"Definition: An upgrade is a software package that replaces an installed version of a product with a newer version of the same product. The upgrade process typically leaves existing customer data and preferences intact while replacing the existing software with the newer version."

So, by that definition, installation of MA3 should replace MA2.6 (if it's there). And the installation program could be written to do that.

Obviously, Prolific can use any definition that they choose.

Jim Sachs · 01-29-2009, 12:47 PM

Dale - Our definition is strictly a monetary one. V2.6 owners are given a price break on MA3.

dwax - Just email Customer Service and tell them who you are. Not everyone at once, please. There's only one guy there, and it's going to be a long day.

cjmaddy · 01-29-2009, 12:53 PM

Jim, - Morgan, ..... You have my blessing to take a week off.....

Having read all todays posts.... This is not a good day. is it?

Jim Sachs · 01-29-2009, 01:02 PM

Nope, not a good day. Plus, my wife left for South Africa yesterday to visit our daughter, so there's no one around to tell me when to eat or sleep. (She's still on an airplane after 30 hours.)

Dale · 01-29-2009, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

Dale - Our definition is strictly a monetary one. V2.6 owners are given a price break on MA3.

That's yours to decide. (I was just pointing out that it might set "expectations" for some users).

I'm not intending to sound argumentative, Jim. You have pointed out that you are not writing the installer (and implied that you don't know much about what it does, except where it directly affects the simulator).

So, if it's important for this group to test the installer, this group needs to have authoritative information from Prolific, about how the installer works (in areas that don't directly affect your work).

Or, if it's not important for this group to test the installer, then that's OK, too. Somebody should just tell us that.

Or, somebody tell us that the installer is "finished" (nothing is intended to be changed or added), and we can test it, observe what it does, (and perhaps suggest bug fixes and changes).

Those all seem to be Prolific's responsibility to answer.

dwax · 01-29-2009, 01:17 PM

I try to use there online customer support contact and always get this.

Please correct errors and resubmit Tech Support Request form.

You must provide the correct passphrase, your name, email address, AND Description of your problem for Customer Service to help you.

Use your browser's 'BACK' button to correct errors.

Jim Sachs · 01-29-2009, 01:58 PM

They are still working the bugs out. They didn't really want anyone to know that the system had gone live until testing was done.

feldon34 · 01-29-2009, 02:06 PM

Then why are they making changes to the Live server instead of a Test server?

I don't make substantial changes to a website without doing a Test first. I didn't migrate to vBulletin 3.7 without testing it for 2 days first. I didn't launch the current Fan Site page until I'd tested it.

I guess I hoped after 9 years they'd realize that fooling around with the Public Sales site of SereneScreen.com creates stress and headaches and makes the author look bad.

Jim Sachs · 01-29-2009, 02:34 PM

They did a lot of testing with the test server, but with things as complicated as e-commerce, there are some parts which can only be tested "for real". So Jim R picked a quiet night, waited about an hour for an order to come in (from France, in this case), saw that it worked OK, then tried to get a little sleep.

JamesGreystone · 01-29-2009, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by dwax:

I try to use there online customer support contact and always get this.

Please correct errors and resubmit Tech Support Request form.

You must provide the correct passphrase, your name, email address, AND Description of your problem for Customer Service to help you.

Use your browser's 'BACK' button to correct errors.

There is a problem, I think best to leave them fix it and try again in the next few days. Boy am I glad I test my sites before I make them live, or I would not have any clients, although to be fair, I don't do ecommerce sites just yet, just customer Info sites. PHEWWWW.

Jim Sachs · 01-29-2009, 03:26 PM

It can be a nightmare with CGI scripts and secure links when banks, credit card companies, PayPal, etc. get involved.

JamesGreystone · 01-29-2009, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

It can be a nightmare with CGI scripts and secure links when banks, credit card companies, PayPal, etc. get involved.

Ah I remember the days when WWW was just a myth, it was all text and newsgroups. You went to a store to make purchases. Now it's insane, making purchases from the Iphone, Web sites secure not secured. Sometime I miss the simpler days......

01-29-2009, 10:33 AM	#82
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	Originally posted by Dale: Footnote: we could also "evaluate" whether the installer DESIGN does the "correct" things. To do that, we would need to know whether MA3 is going to be marketed as an update/upgrade to MA2.6 - or as a new MA that does not "replace" MA2.6. The installer would do different things (to a MA2.6 installation) in those two cases. Jim, perhaps you know the answer to that one? You have already been given the answer to that question, Dale. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

01-29-2009, 10:35 AM	#83
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	MA3 has no knowledge of MA2.6. They are totally different programs with different capabilities and system requirements. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

01-29-2009, 10:36 AM	#84
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	Originally posted by Xylem: Feldon; thanks for info on logos. I notice that one of your groups is mostly religous in nature. What's the possiblity that you could add one like those attached to your list? Just wondering. btw, do I just insert the pic in the MA3 folder, or is there some other method of install? Thanks.... I might expand the Logo pack or allow individual downloads of logos or even write a Logo loader for people to download and install logos into their MA3 from my website. My only concern about the 2 specific logos you posted is they do not have enough blank space on the sides, so they will bleed off the crystal. Right now, MA3 is still a test, so it only supports having one logo file named AltLogo.png placed in the same folder as the Aquarium itself. You switch to this logo by typing "L". MA3 will eventually have a Logo picker. Then you'll be able to load several logos into the Aquarium and pick from them. MA3 will also apparently add some fine-tune controls to resize any logo you bring into the program so that it fits well on the crystal, in case it was not designed to be "crystal safe". "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

01-29-2009, 11:51 AM	#86
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	Dale - MA3 has no knowledge of MA2.6. It doesn't replace it. Honest. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

01-29-2009, 12:27 PM	#87
philosopher Registered Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 86	Render Units and Fan / Gorgonia Movement Jim, I noticed the posts between Rick and yourself about fan movement. I just recently helped a person at my workplace download the 8k beta with installer and run it on a desktop with 4 screens attached. The screens are set up as two on top and two on the bottom. We were running the screen saver to not show the same image on all screens so it was split with the top half on the two top screens and the bottom half on the two bottom screens. Scrolling left and right was therefore active. The fan and Gorgonia (am I spelling that right?) both had motion on the bottom two screens but the top halves were still. I hope that information helps. If you'd like more info - screen #'s graphic cards, etc. I can certainly get it. But the system in question is across the cube forest. But I'll certainly make a special trip if that info will help. Sincerely, S. Justin Gengo "Out of chaos comes order." Nietzsche

01-29-2009, 10:18 AM	#81
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	All three of the logos that I've done, work fine in MA3. But I understand the points you make, Jim. Originally posted by Jim Sachs: Dale - I'm not avoiding installer questions. I've never dealt with one, so I simply don't know. Someone at Prolific is doing the installer. Yes, I understood that Prolific is doing the installer. But, in my opinion, testing an installer is quite substantially different from incrementally testing features being added (and unexpected problems being subtracted) to a simulation like MA3. Especially where personal perception is a vital part of the testing. My point is that when I ask someone to test something complex (like an installer), I ask them to find out if it does all of the things that it's supposed to do (in all specified environments), and does not do anything it's specified to not do, and also to tell me if they notice it doing anything they think is "strange". Some things, also, are only capable of being tested once (per environment) - like flash bulbs, and installers. Running the installer clearly changes the environment. At the moment, the complex installer is being tested by lots of folks using personal criteria, and the testing is based on "random" environments and initial conditions. The results are valuable, of course - but there's limited value in "works OK here as far as I can see". And, of course, everybody who has already tested the installer will not be able to (easily) test future iterations of the installer under the same conditions. I'm quite willing to test the installer as thoroughly as I can, in whatever starting environments I can honestly duplicate on six computers. But: (1) I'm not anxious to CHANGE those starting environments by running the installer before it's fully baked; (2) I would really like to know what the installer is supposed to do, before I tell them if it does. As you said, Jim - somebody at Prolific will have to let us know how to test the installer - otherwise, we're just doing random testing that will find a few of the problems. ============= Footnote: we could also "evaluate" whether the installer DESIGN does the "correct" things. To do that, we would need to know whether MA3 is going to be marketed as an update/upgrade to MA2.6 - or as a new MA that does not "replace" MA2.6. The installer would do different things (to a MA2.6 installation) in those two cases. Jim, perhaps you know the answer to that one?

01-29-2009, 11:34 AM	#85
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by feldon32: You have already been given the answer to that question, Dale. Sorry, I must have missed it. Could you point me to it, please? Or just say what it was? (I tried a search but couldn't find the right place, I guess) Thanks.

01-29-2009, 12:43 PM	#88
dwax Registered Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: SOUTH DAKOTA Posts: 83	How do the beta testers get a key code? By dustywax at 2011-12-13

01-29-2009, 12:43 PM	#89
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: Dale - MA3 has no knowledge of MA2.6. It doesn't replace it. Honest. OK, Got it. So, from your viewpoint, MA3 installation shouldn't depend on anything about MA2.6, and need not mess up MA2.6. [Sorry, I thought I recalled some MA3 troubleshooting advice that involved deleting some MA2.6 registry stuff, which implied a relationship] Therefore, testing the MA3 Installer could be independent of previous environment involving MA2.6 - and only depend on any previous MA3 environment (or previous runs of the MA3 installer). But, Jim, you are answering the technical question about the simulator -- NOT the question about the installer. The installation program COULD take notice of (and do something to/with) a previous MA2.6 installation. As you have pointed out, you aren't doing the installer. So my questions about the installer are really questions for Prolific. Why does that make a difference? You state that MA3 doesn't replace MA2.6 (and you are technically correct, of course). HOWEVER: The SereneScreen website is now offering a MA V3.0 Upgrade. The "accepted" definition (and Microsoft's, if it matters) of Upgrade is: "Definition: An upgrade is a software package that replaces an installed version of a product with a newer version of the same product. The upgrade process typically leaves existing customer data and preferences intact while replacing the existing software with the newer version." So, by that definition, installation of MA3 should replace MA2.6 (if it's there). And the installation program could be written to do that. Obviously, Prolific can use any definition that they choose.

01-29-2009, 12:47 PM	#90
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	Dale - Our definition is strictly a monetary one. V2.6 owners are given a price break on MA3. dwax - Just email Customer Service and tell them who you are. Not everyone at once, please. There's only one guy there, and it's going to be a long day. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

01-29-2009, 12:53 PM	#91
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	Jim, - Morgan, ..... You have my blessing to take a week off..... Having read all todays posts.... This is not a good day. is it?

01-29-2009, 01:02 PM	#92
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	Nope, not a good day. Plus, my wife left for South Africa yesterday to visit our daughter, so there's no one around to tell me when to eat or sleep. (She's still on an airplane after 30 hours.) Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

01-29-2009, 01:08 PM	#93
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: Dale - Our definition is strictly a monetary one. V2.6 owners are given a price break on MA3. That's yours to decide. (I was just pointing out that it might set "expectations" for some users). I'm not intending to sound argumentative, Jim. You have pointed out that you are not writing the installer (and implied that you don't know much about what it does, except where it directly affects the simulator). So, if it's important for this group to test the installer, this group needs to have authoritative information from Prolific, about how the installer works (in areas that don't directly affect your work). Or, if it's not important for this group to test the installer, then that's OK, too. Somebody should just tell us that. Or, somebody tell us that the installer is "finished" (nothing is intended to be changed or added), and we can test it, observe what it does, (and perhaps suggest bug fixes and changes). Those all seem to be Prolific's responsibility to answer.

01-29-2009, 01:17 PM	#94
dwax Registered Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: SOUTH DAKOTA Posts: 83	I try to use there online customer support contact and always get this. Please correct errors and resubmit Tech Support Request form. You must provide the correct passphrase, your name, email address, AND Description of your problem for Customer Service to help you. Use your browser's 'BACK' button to correct errors. By dustywax at 2011-12-13

01-29-2009, 01:58 PM	#95
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	They are still working the bugs out. They didn't really want anyone to know that the system had gone live until testing was done. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

01-29-2009, 02:06 PM	#96
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	Then why are they making changes to the Live server instead of a Test server? I don't make substantial changes to a website without doing a Test first. I didn't migrate to vBulletin 3.7 without testing it for 2 days first. I didn't launch the current Fan Site page until I'd tested it. I guess I hoped after 9 years they'd realize that fooling around with the Public Sales site of SereneScreen.com creates stress and headaches and makes the author look bad. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

01-29-2009, 02:34 PM	#97
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	They did a lot of testing with the test server, but with things as complicated as e-commerce, there are some parts which can only be tested "for real". So Jim R picked a quiet night, waited about an hour for an order to come in (from France, in this case), saw that it worked OK, then tried to get a little sleep. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

01-29-2009, 03:23 PM	#98
JamesGreystone Registered Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Canada brrrrrr Posts: 29	Originally posted by dwax: I try to use there online customer support contact and always get this. Please correct errors and resubmit Tech Support Request form. You must provide the correct passphrase, your name, email address, AND Description of your problem for Customer Service to help you. Use your browser's 'BACK' button to correct errors. There is a problem, I think best to leave them fix it and try again in the next few days. Boy am I glad I test my sites before I make them live, or I would not have any clients, although to be fair, I don't do ecommerce sites just yet, just customer Info sites. PHEWWWW.

01-29-2009, 03:26 PM	#99
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	It can be a nightmare with CGI scripts and secure links when banks, credit card companies, PayPal, etc. get involved. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

01-29-2009, 03:33 PM	#100
JamesGreystone Registered Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Canada brrrrrr Posts: 29	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: It can be a nightmare with CGI scripts and secure links when banks, credit card companies, PayPal, etc. get involved. Ah I remember the days when WWW was just a myth, it was all text and newsgroups. You went to a store to make purchases. Now it's insane, making purchases from the Iphone, Web sites secure not secured. Sometime I miss the simpler days......