Can we Have a WIP Thread? - Page 5

10-08-2004, 01:25 PM

Jim, how about putting them all on hold and working on the Butterfly Screensaver? >>Clint ducks and runs for cover<<

ESHIREY · 10-08-2004, 03:12 PM

BANG ......................... I got him Jim.

Jim Sachs · 10-08-2004, 03:20 PM

Thanks, Ed.

ESHIREY · 10-08-2004, 03:23 PM

Noooooooooooooooooo problem

jleslie · 10-08-2004, 03:57 PM

Some suggestions (feel free to ignore):
(1) Movement -
(i) Have "places of interest", which might be static or mobile and have fish move towards them. (Static - bit of weed, fish feeder. Dynamic - perhaps just have a moving spot on glass, etc.)
(ii) Have idle path for fish to swim where choose a dir and head in it. Or could have a pattern (chosen from a number of different ones) that projects from fish's current position and size for space, with limit to turn angle allowed.
(iii) If fish near another fish then have chance will follow nearly the same path if same type of fish (chance depends on type).
(iv) also have a density calc that will choose new fish course if an area is getting crowded.
(I could do a longer version, but it's late and I'm tired and a bit ill.)
(2) Collisions -
Extend a rod from front of fish and any other moving objects to a distance proportional to speed. When that rod intersects another object's rod (or a non-moving object) one or both must take avoiding action unless target is collision (like fish+something edible).
Bonus personal view - the current background is naff and looks very naff on many LCDs. I was hoping it would get upgraded.
Anyway, just a contribution...

jleslie · 10-08-2004, 04:20 PM

P.S. Conversion - personally I'd try every 3D program on the market to see if there's one that would do the conversion u want then see how well u can import a lightwave object into it. Would be worth looking at what games producers are using as well as 3DMax.

feldon34 · 10-08-2004, 05:00 PM

Lightwave is a well-documented format. So this is just a case of throwing mental muscles at the problem.

And to feed into my off-topicness, yes, I love Wallace & Gromit. I wore a W&G t-shirt to Poland and have done quite a few VERY short claymations. My living space prohibits me from setting up the "studio" but I'd like to get it set back up someday. And I would shoot it all with a digital camera so that I'd be shooting in 1280 x 720 high definition to plan for the future.

Jim Sachs · 10-08-2004, 11:21 PM

jleslie - Thanks for the suggestions, the movement items are all planned.

Collision - this is the single most difficult piece of programming. The "extended rod" system you talk about is basically what I use now, but it has serious flaws. In predicting collisions, it assumes that the target fish will continue along the same trajectory until the subject fish would collide with it. But the fish can turn or change speed at any time - once the program starts they are free agents, for all practical purposes. In turning the subject fish away from that potential collision, it's just as likely that I'll turn it toward another conflict since I don't know what any of the other fish are going to do next. I'm not the only one with this problem - I've never seen another aquarium program without its share of pass-throughs.

Regarding the background, I'll have to look up "naff". If it means less than optimum, then I totally agree. Hence the plan for the 3D background.

jleslie · 10-09-2004, 03:35 AM

Did I mention I loved the art in DoC? Even though got squashed on the PAL version, rather than re-drawn, I think I fancied Katharine (I was young).

For collisions the rod approach is pretty much how real life works, people (and creatures) do vector maths in their heads (to a varying degree - drive round the M25 (London ring road) sometime for examples - not recommended!). When odd things happen, like a planned change of direction results in an unexpected conflict, people (and I think fish) tend to stop, look a bit surprised, and then continue.

People tend to have a zone around them they are conscious of other people entering, perhaps something like that? Maybe the fish need a speed control based on local density of fish and whether they are likely to change direction (or significant direction change likelihood should be based on local fish density and fish speed, um that's saying a Fish moving quickly will tend to turn only if in lots of open space, else will slow down), again I think that's a bit like real life. Could extend to make turn direction choice based on fish density in that direction.

On top of that could have a linked direction thing, where individuals have small individual fluctustions around their shared directions for schoals. Probably needs 3 directions - global, local and individual, with decreasing degrees of coarseness, so bits of the shoal can move around the main one to a degree. Okay, this is too complex and my brain now has an essay building up in it, plus the tank is a bit small for a very big bunch of fish, so I'll stop before I bore people rigid. I hope it makes sense, some bits could perhaps be explained better in a list.
Plus I haven't had breakfast - which means no coffee yet this morning. Could be fatal.
If any use do whatever you want with this, I have no problems with everybody ignoring it either.
It's John, BTW.
P.S. Essential language guide for people who want to claim to speak English rather than American:
http://www.jet.org/FLJETAA/CONFREP.htm

Jim Sachs · 10-09-2004, 10:19 AM

Thanks, but I think I'm too old to learn a new language

Sergiales · 10-09-2004, 12:06 PM

It is never late

Surferminn · 10-09-2004, 02:43 PM

Ha-ha. Thanks John. That footnote clears up a few loose ends for me.

jleslie · 10-11-2004, 02:13 PM

Language notes (it's late, I'm bored, sue me):
Usually would say "sod it" not sod - but swearing!
Don't think Blimey has had much use since the 50s.
Tosser is very rude - you might get in trouble for using it.
"And Bob’s your uncle!" - I'd say more that this means you've got where you are going or you're done, e.g. might put at end of directions or assembly instructions. Not that common though.
Rest are very common.

Marian Nichols · 10-11-2004, 02:20 PM

I just figured out what WIP means.

WORK IN PROGRESS

Surferminn · 10-12-2004, 09:05 AM

Thanks John. I've heard sod used here on the forum once and had to look it up in the dictionary to see what it meant and yes it was used in a cursing context. Thanks for the warning about tosser. would never have thot that was a foul word to call someone. seemed harmless enuf. if not for your note, would have thot it was someone who barfed his lunch or something..

jleslie · 11-30-2004, 08:23 AM

On the subject of the English language, this amused all of us (on this side of the pond):

http://www.todossantos.cc/revocation.htm

...your mileage may vary (as the Americans tend to say).

:-)

P.S. (Going on-topic briefly, wow) I did buy Serenescreen (back in May 02) thinking that the current background (that I think does spoil the effect somewhat) was going to go 3D fairly soon, from my reading of this forum. I do think I'd watch it more often if this did happen.

P.P.S. Of course what I'd really really like is a background with a solid mass of Pulsing Xenias covering one of the rocks!

cjmaddy · 11-30-2004, 11:14 AM

Marian Nichols · 11-30-2004, 11:21 AM

[quote]Originally posted by jleslie
[b]On the subject of the English language, this amused all of us (on this side of the pond):

http://www.todossantos.cc/revocation.htm

...your mileage may vary (as the Americans tend to say).

:-)

I am not amused

Jav400 · 11-30-2004, 11:37 AM

Don't worry about it Marian, we sent them packing the last time they got grandoise ideas, I'm not worried.

cjmaddy · 11-30-2004, 11:50 AM

See, - you don't even know how to use the edit button!

We were VERY amused!

10-08-2004, 03:12 PM	#82
ESHIREY Smilie Dragon Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lebanon, PA Posts: 4,725	BANG ......................... I got him Jim. Thank you for taking the time to read this.

10-08-2004, 03:20 PM	#83
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,788	Thanks, Ed. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

10-08-2004, 03:23 PM	#84
ESHIREY Smilie Dragon Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lebanon, PA Posts: 4,725	Noooooooooooooooooo problem Thank you for taking the time to read this.

10-08-2004, 05:00 PM	#87
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	Lightwave is a well-documented format. So this is just a case of throwing mental muscles at the problem. And to feed into my off-topicness, yes, I love Wallace & Gromit. I wore a W&G t-shirt to Poland and have done quite a few VERY short claymations. My living space prohibits me from setting up the "studio" but I'd like to get it set back up someday. And I would shoot it all with a digital camera so that I'd be shooting in 1280 x 720 high definition to plan for the future. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

10-08-2004, 11:21 PM	#88
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,788	jleslie - Thanks for the suggestions, the movement items are all planned. Collision - this is the single most difficult piece of programming. The "extended rod" system you talk about is basically what I use now, but it has serious flaws. In predicting collisions, it assumes that the target fish will continue along the same trajectory until the subject fish would collide with it. But the fish can turn or change speed at any time - once the program starts they are free agents, for all practical purposes. In turning the subject fish away from that potential collision, it's just as likely that I'll turn it toward another conflict since I don't know what any of the other fish are going to do next. I'm not the only one with this problem - I've never seen another aquarium program without its share of pass-throughs. Regarding the background, I'll have to look up "naff". If it means less than optimum, then I totally agree. Hence the plan for the 3D background. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

10-08-2004, 01:25 PM	#81
klyntun Guest Posts: n/a	Jim, how about putting them all on hold and working on the Butterfly Screensaver? >>Clint ducks and runs for cover<<

10-08-2004, 03:57 PM	#85
jleslie Engineer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,279	Some suggestions (feel free to ignore): (1) Movement - (i) Have "places of interest", which might be static or mobile and have fish move towards them. (Static - bit of weed, fish feeder. Dynamic - perhaps just have a moving spot on glass, etc.) (ii) Have idle path for fish to swim where choose a dir and head in it. Or could have a pattern (chosen from a number of different ones) that projects from fish's current position and size for space, with limit to turn angle allowed. (iii) If fish near another fish then have chance will follow nearly the same path if same type of fish (chance depends on type). (iv) also have a density calc that will choose new fish course if an area is getting crowded. (I could do a longer version, but it's late and I'm tired and a bit ill.) (2) Collisions - Extend a rod from front of fish and any other moving objects to a distance proportional to speed. When that rod intersects another object's rod (or a non-moving object) one or both must take avoiding action unless target is collision (like fish+something edible). Bonus personal view - the current background is naff and looks very naff on many LCDs. I was hoping it would get upgraded. Anyway, just a contribution...

10-08-2004, 04:20 PM	#86
jleslie Engineer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,279	P.S. Conversion - personally I'd try every 3D program on the market to see if there's one that would do the conversion u want then see how well u can import a lightwave object into it. Would be worth looking at what games producers are using as well as 3DMax.

10-09-2004, 03:35 AM	#89
jleslie Engineer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,279	Did I mention I loved the art in DoC? Even though got squashed on the PAL version, rather than re-drawn, I think I fancied Katharine (I was young). For collisions the rod approach is pretty much how real life works, people (and creatures) do vector maths in their heads (to a varying degree - drive round the M25 (London ring road) sometime for examples - not recommended!). When odd things happen, like a planned change of direction results in an unexpected conflict, people (and I think fish) tend to stop, look a bit surprised, and then continue. People tend to have a zone around them they are conscious of other people entering, perhaps something like that? Maybe the fish need a speed control based on local density of fish and whether they are likely to change direction (or significant direction change likelihood should be based on local fish density and fish speed, um that's saying a Fish moving quickly will tend to turn only if in lots of open space, else will slow down), again I think that's a bit like real life. Could extend to make turn direction choice based on fish density in that direction. On top of that could have a linked direction thing, where individuals have small individual fluctustions around their shared directions for schoals. Probably needs 3 directions - global, local and individual, with decreasing degrees of coarseness, so bits of the shoal can move around the main one to a degree. Okay, this is too complex and my brain now has an essay building up in it, plus the tank is a bit small for a very big bunch of fish, so I'll stop before I bore people rigid. I hope it makes sense, some bits could perhaps be explained better in a list. Plus I haven't had breakfast - which means no coffee yet this morning. Could be fatal. If any use do whatever you want with this, I have no problems with everybody ignoring it either. It's John, BTW. P.S. Essential language guide for people who want to claim to speak English rather than American: http://www.jet.org/FLJETAA/CONFREP.htm

10-09-2004, 10:19 AM	#90
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,788	Thanks, but I think I'm too old to learn a new language Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

10-09-2004, 12:06 PM	#91
Sergiales Software Engineer Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Spain Posts: 266	It is never late Sincerely, Sergio.

10-09-2004, 02:43 PM	#92
Surferminn Senior Puddle Jumper Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: California Posts: 6,017	Ha-ha. Thanks John. That footnote clears up a few loose ends for me. Nothing Changes if Nothing Changes.

10-11-2004, 02:13 PM	#93
jleslie Engineer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,279	Language notes (it's late, I'm bored, sue me): Usually would say "sod it" not sod - but swearing! Don't think Blimey has had much use since the 50s. Tosser is very rude - you might get in trouble for using it. "And Bob’s your uncle!" - I'd say more that this means you've got where you are going or you're done, e.g. might put at end of directions or assembly instructions. Not that common though. Rest are very common.

10-11-2004, 02:20 PM	#94
Marian Nichols ~Author~ Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Rocky Mount, NC Posts: 7,429	I just figured out what WIP means. WORK IN PROGRESS Write paranormal mysteries. Six books so far.

10-12-2004, 09:05 AM	#95
Surferminn Senior Puddle Jumper Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: California Posts: 6,017	Thanks John. I've heard sod used here on the forum once and had to look it up in the dictionary to see what it meant and yes it was used in a cursing context. Thanks for the warning about tosser. would never have thot that was a foul word to call someone. seemed harmless enuf. if not for your note, would have thot it was someone who barfed his lunch or something.. Nothing Changes if Nothing Changes.

11-30-2004, 08:23 AM	#96
jleslie Engineer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,279	On the subject of the English language, this amused all of us (on this side of the pond): http://www.todossantos.cc/revocation.htm ...your mileage may vary (as the Americans tend to say). :-) P.S. (Going on-topic briefly, wow) I did buy Serenescreen (back in May 02) thinking that the current background (that I think does spoil the effect somewhat) was going to go 3D fairly soon, from my reading of this forum. I do think I'd watch it more often if this did happen. P.P.S. Of course what I'd really really like is a background with a solid mass of Pulsing Xenias covering one of the rocks!

11-30-2004, 11:14 AM	#97
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854

11-30-2004, 11:21 AM	#98
Marian Nichols ~Author~ Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Rocky Mount, NC Posts: 7,429	[quote]Originally posted by jleslie [b]On the subject of the English language, this amused all of us (on this side of the pond): http://www.todossantos.cc/revocation.htm ...your mileage may vary (as the Americans tend to say). :-) I am not amused

11-30-2004, 11:37 AM	#99
Jav400 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 9,725	Don't worry about it Marian, we sent them packing the last time they got grandoise ideas, I'm not worried. Michael Administrator of Inside:SereneScreen Aquarium Forum, Chatroom, Fan Site & *Gallery* DVD Collection

11-30-2004, 11:50 AM	#100
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	See, - you don't even know how to use the edit button! We were VERY amused!