Marine Aquarium 3 Rumors and Speculation - Page 50

Jim Sachs · 12-23-2007, 12:06 PM

LeeC22 - Welcome to the Forum. I guess coding does provide some respite from doing graphics, but I don't enjoy it all that much. I see it a a necessary chore, and it's always on my mind exerting great influence on the graphics I design. I'm sort of an idiot-savant when it comes to programming. Being self-taught, I tend to only learn the very specific routines which will bring my graphics to life, and have had to come up with some pretty bizarre tricks. On the other hand, the most common routines that any C programmer should know are often unknown to me.

Andrew - Again, welcome to the Forum. I have also wondered why more companies have not entered this field. While competitors have come and gone over the years (a couple are still around), they never seem to have any effect on MA sales. The price of these products is low enough that it's not an either/or situation, but a matter of increasing public awareness that these things exist. If someone buys a competing program, they often start searching the Internet for something better. From my point of view, the test for any of these programs is "How many seconds would a first-time viewer be fooled into thinking this is a real aquarium?" My goal has always been to achieve the greatest amount of realism possible, and MA3 will be a major step in that direction. The movement of the fish will be refined and expanded, and the background will be a 3D environment, instead of a 2D backdrop.

Socrates · 12-23-2007, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

Yay...we're guaranteed one Mac sale!

So many new Mac pod people have switched this year that I think you can count on way more than the one. At least 3!!!

Oh, and with the recent proliferation solid selling super low end laptops and desktops running Linux (eeePC, gOS, etc), it may be time to do that port as well. Those folks are probably hungry for apps with the choices being kind of limited.

johnblommers · 12-23-2007, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by Socrates:

So many new Mac pod people have switched this year that I think you can count on way more than the one. At least 3!!!

Oh, and with the recent proliferation solid selling super low end laptops and desktops running Linux (eeePC, gOS, etc), it may be time to do that port as well. Those folks are probably hungry for apps with the choices being kind of limited.

Apple's Macintosh market share is indeed increasing. The switch to Intel and the lowered entry barrier for windows users via Parallels and VMWare fusion is partly the reason. Mac product quality remains high, as does customer satisfaction, while prices are much more competitive. Heck even PC World found the best and Vista laptop is a Macbook Pro.

Tiny Apple has seen a huge rise in market share (note the distinction between % market share and % growth of market share):

Some of it is attributed to the Halo Effect of iTunes and iPods

More recently the Halo Effect of stunning iPhone sales should kick in

Now I'm not a marketing expert but this trend suggests to me that sales of MA2 and MA3 to Macintosh users should increase in direct proportion to Apple's % market share.

Andrew Jenkins · 12-23-2007, 02:26 PM

...that would be all us brits buying macbooks. At $2 to the £, they have become very popular with my daughter's peer group (15yr olds)

LeeC22 · 12-24-2007, 06:20 AM

Originally posted by cjmaddy:

You must live in Ancoats! ...

That's a scarily close prediction cjmaddy... Gorton actually, but not that far away

LeeC22 · 12-24-2007, 06:41 AM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

LeeC22 - Welcome to the Forum. ... Being self-taught, I tend to only learn the very specific routines which will bring my graphics to life, and have had to come up with some pretty bizarre tricks. On the other hand, the most common routines that any C programmer should know are often unknown to me.

Jim, thank you.

One of the things I have found over the years is that having art as a primary skill and code as secondary, allows you to sometimes consider coding techniques and methods, dedicated programmers may not have considered. It seems a great benefit sometimes to be able to consider a solution from a non-algorithmic approach. I do find coding extremely rewarding though, just in the last 2 years I have taught myself 4 new languages to help me to continue developing games.

On the fish front, are you considering behavioural(sp?) motivation for the movement patterns? I.e. bonding/shoaling in groups of similar fish, gravel/surface searching, for food, lethargy arfter prolonged use without interruption etc...?

We have just bought a pair of Black Moors and I have been astonished by their intelligence and their behaviour patterns. Recognition of lighting changes and their association with food for example. Curiosity around people around their tank, it's been an enlightening couple of months. We put in a broken urn ornament which they use at night as a resting place, because the water movement is less in there. It's incredible just how clever fish are and it would be great to see that reflected in the screen saver.

I could imagine the AI programming for this could be an amazing experience, recreating the habits and traits of specific fish types and then watching them come to life and interacting with each other.

Jav400 · 12-24-2007, 06:56 AM

All that is planned

Jim Sachs · 12-24-2007, 12:20 PM

Lee - Yes, those behavioral attributes are planned. As far as a single artist-programmer doing the whole job, you've hit the nail right on the head. When I first came out with the Aquarium, at least two major companies assembled teams to create competing products. They failed because of the usual lack of communication between artists and programmers. It all comes down to who are the "monkeys". The programmers see the artists as monkeys who do the minor job of filling in the blanks of their wonderful algorithms. Artists see programmers as monkeys who are hired to do the mundane tasks necessary to bring their wonderful artwork to life. A general lack of communication and respect usually prevents anything truly wonderful from happening.

If both these creatures reside in the same brain, then a hundred proposals can flash between the two hemispheres in the time it takes for a programmer to say to an artist, "We can't do that, you moron, it would take a million clock cycles and 10 gigs of ram!"

Tiny Turtle · 12-24-2007, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by johnblommers:

..lots of pretty (and of course entirely unbiased) charts and a picture of Steve Ballmer...

Given that the Blackberry has a greater part of the U.S. smartphone market, wouldn't it be wiser to focus on that one first? Also, please tell me what the share of downloaded TV shows has to do with this except inflating your Apple ego (Apple's share outside the U.S. is exactly 0% in that category, btw)

johnblommers · 12-25-2007, 12:14 AM

Originally posted by Tiny Turtle:

Given that the Blackberry has a greater part of the U.S. smartphone market, wouldn't it be wiser to focus on that one first? Also, please tell me what the share of downloaded TV shows has to do with this except inflating your Apple ego (Apple's share outside the U.S. is exactly 0% in that category, btw)

The topic was about how the Macintosh market for MA3 might improve given current market forces in the United States. The Halo Effect of the iPhone/iPod/ITMS is said to drive Mac sales. That includes ITMS TV downloads. That should be good for MA3 Mac sales, right?

The Blackberry Halo Effect does not shine on Apple or other computer makers as far as I know.

I'll take your word for it that Apple's share of TV downloads outside the U.S. is zero percent. Heck it doesn't even bother me! Don't worry, Tiny Turtle, one day, when Apple clears the legal hurdles, you too will be able to download TV shows! Given the current writer's strike, TV download activity must be hurting though.

Jim Sachs · 12-25-2007, 01:10 AM

After seeing those charts, I'm almost convinced that the Mac versions are a waste of time. The DirectX version covers 92% of the machines being sold, and we need 2 other versions to cover the remaining 8% (Mac Motorola and Mac Intel).

Just kidding, JB. As long as Jim O'Connor is crazy enough to do the conversions, we'll have Mac versions.

johnblommers · 12-25-2007, 02:05 AM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

After seeing those charts, I'm almost convinced that the Mac versions are a waste of time. The DirectX version covers 92% of the machines being sold, and we need 2 other versions to cover the remaining 8% (Mac Motorola and Mac Intel).

Just kidding, JB. As long as Jim O'Connor is crazy enough to do the conversions, we'll have Mac versions.

Jim I appreciate your sense of humor more than I can say. In one quarter Apple sells about a million computers. That is a sizable market you're targeting:

Plus you have enthusiastic supporters in both markets, a wonderful asset.

May I ask when you are ready to send MA3 to the fierce Jim O'Connor? I expect he'll have some archane magix up his sleeve to deal with both PPC and Intel versions of the Mac, perhaps in the form of a universal binary.

Well the clock just chimed, it is now Christmas Day! Merry Christmas Jim, and readers all!

Jim Sachs · 12-25-2007, 02:34 AM

Jim O'Connor has seen the latest Alpha, but not the code yet. I'm a little worried that some of the DirectX tricks I'm using this time won't be easily translatable to OpenGL, but if anyone can do it, he can.

feldon34 · 12-25-2007, 12:38 PM

I guess I need to split this off into another topic -- Apple Fanboys or Steve Jobs bootlickers

hololo · 12-29-2007, 05:38 AM

Hello Jim,
Could you show some pictures on new 3.0?
Best wishes for differs greatly from 2.0.

Happy New Year

Jav400 · 12-29-2007, 06:40 AM

Shots of 3.0 will not be released. Sorry but you have to wait until the entire project is ready to go.

feldon34 · 12-29-2007, 11:35 AM

I really think that screen shots would diminish the impact of MA3 rather than boost interest. With the camera moving back and forth, it's really a totally different animal than MA2.

Sergiales · 12-29-2007, 11:55 AM

Originally posted by feldon31:

I really think that screen shots would diminish the impact of MA3 rather than boost interest. With the camera moving back and forth, it's really a totally different animal than MA2.

Please DON'T show us screenshots of V3. Thanks!

cjmaddy · 12-29-2007, 03:08 PM

Is that in the hope that because you said DON'T, ... then they probably might?

Marian Nichols · 12-29-2007, 03:57 PM

Reverse psychology!

No, I don't to see any either, and please don't make me. Quit twisting my arm!!

Ok, OK, I'll have one look!

12-23-2007, 12:06 PM	#981
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,789	LeeC22 - Welcome to the Forum. I guess coding does provide some respite from doing graphics, but I don't enjoy it all that much. I see it a a necessary chore, and it's always on my mind exerting great influence on the graphics I design. I'm sort of an idiot-savant when it comes to programming. Being self-taught, I tend to only learn the very specific routines which will bring my graphics to life, and have had to come up with some pretty bizarre tricks. On the other hand, the most common routines that any C programmer should know are often unknown to me. Andrew - Again, welcome to the Forum. I have also wondered why more companies have not entered this field. While competitors have come and gone over the years (a couple are still around), they never seem to have any effect on MA sales. The price of these products is low enough that it's not an either/or situation, but a matter of increasing public awareness that these things exist. If someone buys a competing program, they often start searching the Internet for something better. From my point of view, the test for any of these programs is "How many seconds would a first-time viewer be fooled into thinking this is a real aquarium?" My goal has always been to achieve the greatest amount of realism possible, and MA3 will be a major step in that direction. The movement of the fish will be refined and expanded, and the background will be a 3D environment, instead of a 2D backdrop. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

12-23-2007, 01:11 PM	#982
Socrates Sage Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: West Hills, CA Posts: 1,529	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: Yay...we're guaranteed one Mac sale! So many new Mac pod people have switched this year that I think you can count on way more than the one. At least 3!!! Oh, and with the recent proliferation solid selling super low end laptops and desktops running Linux (eeePC, gOS, etc), it may be time to do that port as well. Those folks are probably hungry for apps with the choices being kind of limited. Bat rays? We don't need no stinking bat rays!

12-23-2007, 01:50 PM	#983
johnblommers The Architect Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 756	Originally posted by Socrates: So many new Mac pod people have switched this year that I think you can count on way more than the one. At least 3!!! Oh, and with the recent proliferation solid selling super low end laptops and desktops running Linux (eeePC, gOS, etc), it may be time to do that port as well. Those folks are probably hungry for apps with the choices being kind of limited. Apple's Macintosh market share is indeed increasing. The switch to Intel and the lowered entry barrier for windows users via Parallels and VMWare fusion is partly the reason. Mac product quality remains high, as does customer satisfaction, while prices are much more competitive. Heck even PC World found the best and Vista laptop is a Macbook Pro. Tiny Apple has seen a huge rise in market share (note the distinction between % market share and % growth of market share): Some of it is attributed to the Halo Effect of iTunes and iPods More recently the Halo Effect of stunning iPhone sales should kick in Now I'm not a marketing expert but this trend suggests to me that sales of MA2 and MA3 to Macintosh users should increase in direct proportion to Apple's % market share. Reasons people don't watch Star Trek: 60% - It’s for nerds. 39% - The show’s stupid. 01% - My parents were killed by Klingons and it's still too painful.

12-24-2007, 06:56 AM	#987
Jav400 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 9,725	All that is planned Michael Administrator of Inside:SereneScreen Aquarium Forum, Chatroom, Fan Site & *Gallery* DVD Collection

12-24-2007, 12:20 PM	#988
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,789	Lee - Yes, those behavioral attributes are planned. As far as a single artist-programmer doing the whole job, you've hit the nail right on the head. When I first came out with the Aquarium, at least two major companies assembled teams to create competing products. They failed because of the usual lack of communication between artists and programmers. It all comes down to who are the "monkeys". The programmers see the artists as monkeys who do the minor job of filling in the blanks of their wonderful algorithms. Artists see programmers as monkeys who are hired to do the mundane tasks necessary to bring their wonderful artwork to life. A general lack of communication and respect usually prevents anything truly wonderful from happening. If both these creatures reside in the same brain, then a hundred proposals can flash between the two hemispheres in the time it takes for a programmer to say to an artist, "We can't do that, you moron, it would take a million clock cycles and 10 gigs of ram!" Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

12-23-2007, 02:26 PM	#984
Andrew Jenkins Registered Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: London Posts: 18	...that would be all us brits buying macbooks. At $2 to the £, they have become very popular with my daughter's peer group (15yr olds)

12-24-2007, 06:20 AM	#985
LeeC22 Registered Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Manchester, UK Posts: 10	Originally posted by cjmaddy: You must live in Ancoats! ... That's a scarily close prediction cjmaddy... Gorton actually, but not that far away

12-24-2007, 06:41 AM	#986
LeeC22 Registered Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Manchester, UK Posts: 10	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: LeeC22 - Welcome to the Forum. ... Being self-taught, I tend to only learn the very specific routines which will bring my graphics to life, and have had to come up with some pretty bizarre tricks. On the other hand, the most common routines that any C programmer should know are often unknown to me. Jim, thank you. One of the things I have found over the years is that having art as a primary skill and code as secondary, allows you to sometimes consider coding techniques and methods, dedicated programmers may not have considered. It seems a great benefit sometimes to be able to consider a solution from a non-algorithmic approach. I do find coding extremely rewarding though, just in the last 2 years I have taught myself 4 new languages to help me to continue developing games. On the fish front, are you considering behavioural(sp?) motivation for the movement patterns? I.e. bonding/shoaling in groups of similar fish, gravel/surface searching, for food, lethargy arfter prolonged use without interruption etc...? We have just bought a pair of Black Moors and I have been astonished by their intelligence and their behaviour patterns. Recognition of lighting changes and their association with food for example. Curiosity around people around their tank, it's been an enlightening couple of months. We put in a broken urn ornament which they use at night as a resting place, because the water movement is less in there. It's incredible just how clever fish are and it would be great to see that reflected in the screen saver. I could imagine the AI programming for this could be an amazing experience, recreating the habits and traits of specific fish types and then watching them come to life and interacting with each other.

12-24-2007, 07:52 PM	#989
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Originally posted by johnblommers: ..lots of pretty (and of course entirely unbiased) charts and a picture of Steve Ballmer... Given that the Blackberry has a greater part of the U.S. smartphone market, wouldn't it be wiser to focus on that one first? Also, please tell me what the share of downloaded TV shows has to do with this except inflating your Apple ego (Apple's share outside the U.S. is exactly 0% in that category, btw) Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

12-25-2007, 12:14 AM	#990
johnblommers The Architect Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 756	Originally posted by Tiny Turtle: Given that the Blackberry has a greater part of the U.S. smartphone market, wouldn't it be wiser to focus on that one first? Also, please tell me what the share of downloaded TV shows has to do with this except inflating your Apple ego (Apple's share outside the U.S. is exactly 0% in that category, btw) The topic was about how the Macintosh market for MA3 might improve given current market forces in the United States. The Halo Effect of the iPhone/iPod/ITMS is said to drive Mac sales. That includes ITMS TV downloads. That should be good for MA3 Mac sales, right? The Blackberry Halo Effect does not shine on Apple or other computer makers as far as I know. I'll take your word for it that Apple's share of TV downloads outside the U.S. is zero percent. Heck it doesn't even bother me! Don't worry, Tiny Turtle, one day, when Apple clears the legal hurdles, you too will be able to download TV shows! Given the current writer's strike, TV download activity must be hurting though. Reasons people don't watch Star Trek: 60% - It’s for nerds. 39% - The show’s stupid. 01% - My parents were killed by Klingons and it's still too painful.

12-25-2007, 01:10 AM	#991
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,789	After seeing those charts, I'm almost convinced that the Mac versions are a waste of time. The DirectX version covers 92% of the machines being sold, and we need 2 other versions to cover the remaining 8% (Mac Motorola and Mac Intel). Just kidding, JB. As long as Jim O'Connor is crazy enough to do the conversions, we'll have Mac versions. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

12-25-2007, 02:05 AM	#992
johnblommers The Architect Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 756	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: After seeing those charts, I'm almost convinced that the Mac versions are a waste of time. The DirectX version covers 92% of the machines being sold, and we need 2 other versions to cover the remaining 8% (Mac Motorola and Mac Intel). Just kidding, JB. As long as Jim O'Connor is crazy enough to do the conversions, we'll have Mac versions. Jim I appreciate your sense of humor more than I can say. In one quarter Apple sells about a million computers. That is a sizable market you're targeting: Plus you have enthusiastic supporters in both markets, a wonderful asset. May I ask when you are ready to send MA3 to the fierce Jim O'Connor? I expect he'll have some archane magix up his sleeve to deal with both PPC and Intel versions of the Mac, perhaps in the form of a universal binary. Well the clock just chimed, it is now Christmas Day! Merry Christmas Jim, and readers all! Reasons people don't watch Star Trek: 60% - It’s for nerds. 39% - The show’s stupid. 01% - My parents were killed by Klingons and it's still too painful.

12-25-2007, 02:34 AM	#993
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,789	Jim O'Connor has seen the latest Alpha, but not the code yet. I'm a little worried that some of the DirectX tricks I'm using this time won't be easily translatable to OpenGL, but if anyone can do it, he can. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

12-25-2007, 12:38 PM	#994
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	I guess I need to split this off into another topic -- Apple Fanboys or Steve Jobs bootlickers "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

12-29-2007, 05:38 AM	#995
hololo Registered Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Taipei Taiwan Posts: 43	Hello Jim, Could you show some pictures on new 3.0? Best wishes for differs greatly from 2.0. Happy New Year

12-29-2007, 06:40 AM	#996
Jav400 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 9,725	Shots of 3.0 will not be released. Sorry but you have to wait until the entire project is ready to go. Michael Administrator of Inside:SereneScreen Aquarium Forum, Chatroom, Fan Site & *Gallery* DVD Collection

12-29-2007, 11:35 AM	#997
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	I really think that screen shots would diminish the impact of MA3 rather than boost interest. With the camera moving back and forth, it's really a totally different animal than MA2. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

12-29-2007, 11:55 AM	#998
Sergiales Software Engineer Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Spain Posts: 266	Originally posted by feldon31: I really think that screen shots would diminish the impact of MA3 rather than boost interest. With the camera moving back and forth, it's really a totally different animal than MA2. Please DON'T show us screenshots of V3. Thanks! Sincerely, Sergio.

12-29-2007, 03:08 PM	#999
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	Is that in the hope that because you said DON'T, ... then they probably might?

12-29-2007, 03:57 PM	#1000
Marian Nichols ~Author~ Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Rocky Mount, NC Posts: 7,429	Reverse psychology! No, I don't to see any either, and please don't make me. Quit twisting my arm!! Ok, OK, I'll have one look! Write paranormal mysteries. Six books so far.