Simple additions

[Terry Kennedy]

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

On the contrary, I think it's very likely to happen. Some day, someone will be messing around with their drivers or tweaking their Windows settings, and the MIDI files will just start playing. The hard part is getting them to come back here to the Forum and report what they did.  

Please remember that my systems played every type of audio I could throw at them (MIDI included) from every app that produces audio (and I have some obscure ones) except the bubbles and CanonGuitar from MA3.

I still think there may be some difference between the bubble and CanonGuitar problems as the music chooser box can play a WAV file.

This could probably be pinned down by adding a "generate debug log" box to the program settings menu in the next build (after all, this is a beta). You could log whatever info you think would help you track the problem down (logging parameters sent to and return codes from the sound functions would seem to be a place to start). Similar debugging code could be added to help you track down any issues that other people have reported, as well.

[cjmaddy]

Do you really think that Jim has nothing better to do than follow up every self-inflicted fault that users create on their own systems?

When I find a problem, I research it myself, (it is after all MY problem). Then when I find what has caused it, I report the results, and if the underlying reason was with MA, then Jim can take any action he considers necessary or possible. - If on the other hand the remedy is by making corrections to MY system, the need to report is solely so others can be aware of the effect such a situation can cause.

[Terry Kennedy]

Originally posted by cjmaddy:

Do you really think that Jim has nothing better to do than follow up every self-inflicted fault that users create on their own systems? ...  

Nice attempt at being snarky. Dale can tell you I'm a lot better than you at it, but at least I'm trying to be a) polite and b) helpful here.

When I find a problem, I research it myself, (it is after all MY problem). Then when I find what has caused it, I report the results, and if the underlying reason was with MA, then Jim can take any action he considers necessary or possible. - If on the other hand the remedy is by making corrections to MY system, the need to report is solely so others can be aware of the effect such a situation can cause.

I had multiple systems that exhibit the problem. I performed every diagnostic test suggested here, no matter how unlikely it was to fix the problem or create new problems (install DirectX 8 components on Windows 7? Why not?). None of that helped.

After some additional exploring on my own, I found that running a component (media center) that is not even included in some versions of Windows 7 seems to correct the problem. Of course, that won't help the customers who have Windows versions that don't include it.

I have repeatedly expressed my willingness to try other troubleshooting steps, explained to Jim how he could run Windows 7 free for at least 30 days so he could track it down, and made several suggestions about a debug option in MA3 which would log "what goes out and what goes in" so that Jim could gather whatever data he wants on systems that have the problem.

[Terry Kennedy]

Originally posted by Terry Kennedy:

True. But you did say "The bubble sound is a simple looping wave (.wav) file.". That's why I said that the bubbles were the primary issue.

Of course, it would be better if the underlying problem was addressed, but it doesn't sound like that's likely to happen.  

Ok, I've made what will probably be my last effort to troubleshoot this and provide input to Jim.

I extracted the fishss22.wav file that is embedded in MA3. If I use that as a sound in the MA3 music player, I get the "official" bubble sound just fine (yes, even on the system that still isn't working), but with a pause every 8 seconds as the MA3 music player recycles. (If I play it with Windows Media Player and "Repeat" checked, it loops without pauses, so I assume this is a result of the way the MA3 music player works.

So, here we have the exact official file it is trying to use for bubbles, but the code that tries to play it as bubbles can't, while the music player in the same program can.

By the way, for anyone who wants to try it, it is here. And it is 654KB by the way, not exactly a lightweight (this makes it about 10% of the total size of the MA3 executable).

[Dale]

Originally posted by Terry Kennedy:

I extracted the fishss22.wav file that is embedded in MA3. If I use that as a sound in the MA3 music player, I get the "official" bubble sound just fine (yes, even on the system that still isn't working), but with a pause every 8 seconds as the MA3 music player recycles. (If I play it with Windows Media Player and "Repeat" checked, it loops without pauses, so I assume this is a result of the way the MA3 music player works.

So, here we have the exact official file it is trying to use for bubbles, but the code that tries to play it as bubbles can't, while the music player in the same program can..  

Thanks for the extract, Terry. Am I correctly understanding that the embedded bubbles are in .wav format? (i.e., not .sgt)

I see the same results (on systems that work anyway). The pause every ~~8 seconds is brief - perhaps 1/4 second.

One conclusion might be that if MA3 used the same code for playing the bubbles, that it does for playing music, then the bubbles "should" work for everybody.

Another conclusion might be that if MA3 used embedded CanonGuitar.wav instead of .sgt, it "should" work for everybody.

What's the difference in file size between .sgt and .wav?

[Terry Kennedy]

Originally posted by Dale:

Thanks for the extract, Terry. Am I correctly understanding that the embedded bubbles are in .wav format? (i.e., not .sgt)  

Yes. I just clipped the file out of the executable (under Unix) with:

dd if=MarineAquarium3.scr of=fishss22.wav bs=1 count=669806 skip=5465112

One conclusion might be that if MA3 used the same code for playing the bubbles, that it does for playing music, then the bubbles "should" work for everybody.

That's what I thought, too.

Another conclusion might be that if MA3 used embedded CanonGuitar.wav instead of .sgt, it "should" work for everybody.

What's the difference in file size between .sgt and .wav?

Quite a bit (which is what Jim was getting at earlier). CanonGuitar.sgt is 56KB, less than 1/10th the size of the 8 seconds of bubble .wav. That's why I said it would probably make sense to concentrate on the bubbles - the large .wav is already in the program.

[cjmaddy]

Originally posted by Terry Kennedy:

Nice attempt at being snarky. Dale can tell you I'm a lot better than you at it, but at least I'm trying to be a) polite and b) helpful here.  

Terry, - IMO, you are neither polite, nor helpful. - If that is what you are attempting, then you are not succeeding.

If you have established that installing Windows Media Centre corrects your lack-of-sound problem, then a logical step would be to determine what has been added/changed to/with your system/s by adding the WMC that then allows the MA3 .sgt files to be heard.

A quick search through recent posts produces a plethora of users who are all having no problems at all hearing both the bubbles and the CanonGuitar.sgt on a variety of W7 setups. The conclusion therefore must be that there is something different/wrong with your system/s.

Good luck with finding out what that 'something' is.

[Yodelking]

Can we get back to the topic, please!
I find "Simple additions" to be an interesting topic, and if there's additions to it, I'd like that to be related to the topic, so I don't spend time reading when people are writing crap!

[Dale]

Originally posted by cjmaddy:

A quick search through recent posts produces a plethora of users who are all having no problems at all hearing both the bubbles and the CanonGuitar.sgt on a variety of W7 setups. The conclusion therefore must be that there is something different/wrong with your system/s.

Good luck with finding out what that 'something' is.  

As I have mentioned before, approximately 10% of the reports are that MA3 does not properly handle bubble sound and the default music in Windows 7.

https://www.feldoncentral.com/forums...?t=5145&page=7

In addition, another approximately 5% report that MA3 does not work properly on Windows 7, in various other ways.

Yes, I completely agree that if MA3 works correctly with some W7 systems, and does not work correctly with other W7 systems, then there must be something different with the systems.

[Added] Sorry yodelking - I was writing while you were. I agree that this topic has gone well off the subject, and perhaps should return to the title]

[feldon34]

If I felt it would help, I would spend about an hour trimming out all the rudeness, snark, sarcasm, and personal attacks from all the aimless, unfocused threads that have been created and replied to in the past weeks.

But I feel my hands are tied, so it shall continue.

[harris]

Originally posted by feldon34:

If I felt it would help, I would spend about an hour trimming out all the rudeness, snark, sarcasm, and personal attacks from all the aimless, unfocused threads that have been created and replied to in the past weeks.

But I feel my hands are tied, so it shall continue.  

Curiosity has got the better of me, if I may be so bold to ask; why are your hands tied?

[JohnWho]

Doesn't having your hands tied make it hard to type?

[Jav400]

Either:

A) it wont matter because a week later it will be right back like it was

B) someone somewhere will get ticked when their post is removed

C) all of the above

[Ralph]

Originally posted by feldon34:

But I feel my hands are tied, so it shall continue.  

This could be a local custom in Copenhagen, the tying of hands. When in Rome do as the Romans do thing...

[Jim Sachs]

Meanwhile, back on Earth -

The Background Color interface is coming along pretty well. I'm currently hooking up all those little buttons. Now that I've got the color swatches under control, it's kind of nice to be doing the part that's just a lot of work, but nothing new needs to be invented. I just finished pouring some concrete at 10:30. Hope to get the main dialog box working before I have to go back and trowel the cement about 2 a.m. Got an appointment for a minor operation at 8:30 in the morning (eyelid cyst). I'll be working with one eye tomorrow.

[Ralph]

You are troweling 15 odd hours after a pour... that stuff will be like concrete by that time Then up and ready for an eye appointment at 8:30... Much too long a day for me

[Nicki]

This thread made me really doubt my testing of MA3 with Windows 7, so I have gone back and done another thorough test. Still no problems, everything is fine out of the box, apart from the fact that I updated DirectX.

[Jim Sachs]

Ralph - No, just 3 hours. Wasn't anywhere near ready 'til after 3 a.m.

On the eyelid surgery front, the doctor decided to wait a couple more weeks, using just hot compresses. (It's already been 4 weeks without improvement.)

Nicki - Thanks for checking again. Please refresh my memory - was this system a native W7 a computer, or could it have already had some older drivers on it?

[Nicki]

Jim, it's a native W7 computer running Home Premium. My previous computer was kind enough to kick the bucket just as W7 came out. The new machine didn't come with media center.

[Jim Sachs]

OK, that's encouraging. At least it means that Microsoft did not intentionally abandon support for DirectX 8/9 sound drivers. It also eliminates the possibility that some W7 users were only hearing sound because of old legacy drivers that were still on their computers from previous operating systems.