Bug: active program closes with MA2

[Edgar]

Search for "intellipoint problem closing windows" on Google and there are a couple of instances of other people having problem with Intellipoint mouse.

Note that I did not search on this before because one of the other person who had the problem did not have Intellipoint mouse.

[CatLikingFish]

This forum post might be related to your problem:

http://forums.rojakpot.com/showthread.php?t=15140

[Dale]

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

Dale - make no mistake, your help is greatly appreciated. Your scientific approach is quite refreshing. You are dealing with a guy (Edgar) who is extremely experienced in tracking down bugs. This one is so rare that no one directly connected with the program has ever seen it, so he's flying blind in this case. What makes it harder is the fact that it seems to be tied to DirectX, a Microsoft program that we do not have the source code for. Our code doesn't do anything weird - the program opens, moves some graphics around, and closes. Just like every other program either I or Prolific have ever written. All the C calls are done in the normal recommended way.

Switching from a DX6 base to a DX7 base is way beyond the scope of this little 2-fish update. MA3 will use DX8 or later, and that's where our priorities lie. (But, yes - it would really be nice to fix this bug in the current version.)  

Yes, I understand that nobody directly connected with the program has ever seen it. And if it was just "my system" we would have a different situation. But it's not just me - apparently. Also, it's not exactly surprising that there might be subtle small differences between the DX6 base and DX9 which is what "everybody" is using.

By the time MA3 hits the street, it is absolutely certain that Vista will be released, and perhaps DX10 (or DX11). So, I would hope that MA3 would at least use DX9.

I understand priorities, and I am *NOT* saying that the bug should be fixed in MA2.0 - I'm taking partial responsibility for not helping with the diagnosis during the MA2.0 timeframe (I just quit using MA). If I had helped with that diagnosis, then I could be unhappy that the fix didn't happen in MA2.6. But I didn't, and it didn't, and here we are.

To repeat, I am *NOT* saying that the bug should be fixed now. But I *AM* saying that the bug _should_ be precisely diagnosed now. And I'm at a loss to figure out how to do that, using customer testing.

*IF* MA3 does not exhibit the problem, that will be great (and it will be "fixed" without knowing for sure what it is, and without additional cost). Note that (as is often the situation), in that case all of this work by Edgar and others could be viewed as "unnecessary and useless" - although that shouldn't discourage any of us.

*IF* MA3 _does_ exhibit the problem, then we're back to the starting line, and history will repeat itself, and MA4 will also likely have the problem...

But, unless somebody has any additional ideas for testing, I think I'll just go turn off the sharks (which I hate, but which doesn't have the problem), and turn on Carousel/MA2.6.

[Edgar]

Dale,
I was actually hoping if you could uninstall intellipoint for now and use the normal PS2 Mouse driver to see if the problem disappears or not.

I am still looking for a good resolution to this.

However, if you feel that the Carousel solution is good enough, that is fine also.

[Dale]

Originally posted by Edgar:

Note: On a bug that only happens on very few people, the best debugging procedure is to boot the same hardware with a clean system then install the suspected software by itself. If it fails then that suspected software is to more likely to blame. If it does not fail, start installing other software until the same problem occurs. The last software installed when the problem occurs is more likely the cause of the problem.

Since I don't have access to the same hardware, this is not possible for me.
 

...and it is highly unlikely that I will do it, either.

I also suspect that a fresh install of XP Pro with all updates and downloaded fixes from Microsoft, would automatically install the Intellipoint drivers. (And installing without updates and fixes wouldn't be a valid test, either. Among other things, that would be an earlier version of DirectX)

But - see next reply

[Dale]

Originally posted by Edgar:

Dale,
I was actually hoping if you could uninstall intellipoint for now and use the normal PS2 Mouse driver to see if the problem disappears or not.

I am still looking for a good resolution to this.

However, if you feel that the Carousel solution is good enough, that is fine also.  

I'm not sure I know exactly how to get rid of Intellipoint - of course, I can uninstall the stuff that shows in Add/Remove programs, but will that change me back to the "normal PS2 Mouse driver"? I guess I can fiddle around with it this evening.

Of course, we already did know that it is related to the mouse - but apparently with several versions of mouse stuff. We know that is related, because disabling "exit on mouse move" gets rid of the problem.

Out of curiosity, what would you change in MA2.6 if my using the normal PS2 drivers makes the problem go away?

[Edgar]

Originally posted by Dale:

Of course, we already did know that it is related to the mouse - but apparently with several versions of mouse stuff. We know that is related, because disabling "exit on mouse move" gets rid of the problem.  

I must have missed this in our previous conversations in troubleshooting this.
If this fixes the problem then the workaround already exist and there is nothing else I can do. I thought the problem still existed even after that was unchecked.

We also have Carousel as a solution.

DirectX 7 as a solution will probably not happen until another major feature is going to be added to MA2.6 since switching to DirectX 7 will generate much more bugs initially. Probably when the creature pack becomes a reality, this can happen.

Dale, I appreciate all your help and I suggest not to uninstall Intellipoint unless you are having other problems with other software.

[FerdFerd]

I am the source (or at least a source) of the information that I could exit MA with a mouse move even when the box allowing that is unchecked. That was true for me until I updated the Intellipoint mouse drivers from version 5.2 to 5.5. When I did that, MA stopped exiting with a mouse move when the box is unchecked. So this no longer happens on my system.

And yes, it is a work around to uncheck the box and then leave the screen saver by pressing the Esc key. I have never seen an application close when I've done that. Maybe Carousel too - I haven't used that very much while I've been testing Sharks.

Incidentally, I've run Sharks all day, exiting as often as I can manage, and I have not so far seen it close the underlying active application. I regard this as an interim report. More later.

[Dale]

Originally posted by Edgar:

I must have missed this in our previous conversations in troubleshooting this.
If this fixes the problem then the workaround already exist and there is nothing else I can do. I thought the problem still existed even after that was unchecked.

We also have Carousel as a solution.

Dale, I appreciate all your help and I suggest not to uninstall Intellipoint unless you are having other problems with other software.  

Re: the previous discussion, see stuff around 5-23-2005 and 5-24-2005 between pac722 and AudenTech. Also see posting around 11-07-2005 by FerdFerd.

Re: disabling exit on mouse move being a workaround. Personal opinion - that's not acceptable (and particularly not acceptable for a long time). Personal opinion: a screensaver that won't exit when I move the mouse is just not worth having. As you point out, using Carousel is a decent workaround for those of us who know about it.

And no, I'm not having problems with any other software - so per your suggestion I won't try uninstalling Intellipoint.

Re: the underlying problem. I believe you implied that you could probably fix it in MA2.6 if it would not require going to a new version of DirectX. [Please correct me if I'm wrong about that]. Now that you suspect it's related to mouse drivers, what's the prognosis?

[Jim Sachs]

Edgar - is it possible that the Intellipoint drivers are issuing multilple rapid CLOSE messages, and if so, might it be possible for us to filter them down to just one?

[Dale]

Originally posted by Edgar:

DirectX 7 as a solution will probably not happen until another major feature is going to be added to MA2.6 since switching to DirectX 7 will generate much more bugs initially. Probably when the creature pack becomes a reality, this can happen.  

I understand those priorities, and can agree with them.

DirectX 6 was released for Windows 98SE and Windows ME. DirectX 7 was released for Windows 2000. DirectX 8.1 was released for Windows XP and Windows 2003 Server. DirextX 9.0c is current, I think. From a user standpoint, they are downward compatible (installing the latest version is normally the right thing to do).

However, please let me observe - in passing - that there have been previous firm opinions that Directx 6 couldn't possibly be causing a problem. It would seem to me that if that is true, then simply translating (switching) to DirectX 7 could not possibly generate more bugs.

[Tiny Turtle]

When Jim and Edgar say MA2 is written using DirectX 6 they're not referring to the interface (does someone know a better word?) you install on your computer, but rather the library of features (even more translatative problems for me I'm afraid). Installing the current (yes, 9.0c introduced with XP SP2) version doesn't change which version MA uses.

/Maby Tiny Dumb Answer

[Dale]

Originally posted by Tiny Turtle:

When Jim and Edgar say MA2 is written using DirectX 6 they're not referring to the interface (does someone know a better word?) you install on your computer, but rather the library of features (even more translatative problems for me I'm afraid). Installing the current (yes, 9.0c introduced with XP SP2) version doesn't change which version MA uses.

/Maby Tiny Dumb Answer  

Yep. A more descriptive way would be that MA2 is written using DirectX 6 calls (or DirectX 6 Library). In the olden days, we would say that MA2 was compiled with DirectX 6 subroutines.

Think of this in terms of how much of a foreign language the program can speak.

Something that "speaks" DirectX 6 uses less of the dictionary than DirectX 7, which uses less of the dictionary than DirectX 8, which uses less than DirectX 9. However, it's the same dictionary - the difference is simply in how much of the dictionary is spoken.

Now, think of what's installed on the user's computer in terms of what it understands.

DirectX 9 understands how to talk (in another language) to the most modern video hardware. But more importantly, DirectX 9 on your computer can understand a program that is "speaking" DirectX 6, 7, 8, or 9.

That's a gross simplification, but perhaps sufficient for this discussion.

[Jim Sachs]

Yes, that's true. DirectX9 contains all the obsolete libraraies for all previous DirectX versions, so my DX6 program still runs on it. Migrating the code to DX7 would not be an enormous task - probably a couple of weeks - but the testing for bugs in all areas of the program would be huge. Don't forget that there are 64 different versions of MA still being supported, and for a program that will be replaced anyway, it's not even close to being worth the trouble.

Different versions of DirectX have their own plusses and minuses. DX6 and DX7 were fairly similar. DX8 was a great leap forward, but lost the ability for the programmer to know which video buffer was being displayed. This meant it had no support for stereoscopic glasses. DX9 reinstated this ability, but there are MANY machines out there which never got updated to DX9, and we'd be giving up a large percentage of the market by using it. Also, the DX9 demos from Microsoft require .NET, and I refuse to go that direction.

[Tiny Turtle]

Thank you for providing my input with the appropriate nomenclature. (English being a second language coupled with no programming skills sometimes require outside help.)

Let me apologise for mistakenly assuming you were confusing DX Libraries with "just" DX as the discussion seemed to revolve around DX Library versions when you brought up the "just" DX versions and which version of Windows they were released for (as for instance DX8.1 was released for W95 as well though it originally came out with DX1.0). W2k3 Server came with DX9.0, not 8.1, btw.

/Tiny Version History

[Edgar]

I have news. I found an Intellipoint Mouse and I installed into two computers with Intellipoint Software. The first computer did not exhibit the problem. I think the second computer did. Now that I know it is related to Intellipoint I have something to test here.
I will let you know what I find and what is a good solution.

[FerdFerd]

After silently watching today's exchanges, I thought I would register my own opinion about how I see this. It is frustrating indeed to have an application close when a screen saver exits. But for me, whatever the outcome of this, MA has such great looking fish that I am willing to use the Esc key to exit if that is what I need to do. After all, no one these days needs a screen saver. I hope eventually to be able to exit with a mouse move, but I like these realistic fish enough to use the work-around. I'm just grateful there is one. They are the most realistic fish I've seen so far. I want to use this screen saver.

When I first noticed this behavior (and remember I didn't have it until I had to reinstall my OS), I asked a forum at Dell what I should do about the exits with mouse moves, and the advice was to stop using that screen saver. Good advice in reality. If software doesn't work for you, don't use it. (Actually in my case it did once work fully, but then it stopped.)

For me, I'm happy to do some testing in hopes of helping the authors find out what is going on, and although I would prefer it to be otherwise, I am going to keep MA even if I have to press the Esc key to get out of it reliably. Not much farther for my hand than the mouse. Not any farther if I will be typing when I wake the computer up. Great fish are worth it.

Incidentially, still no failures yet on exiting Sharks.

[Dale]

Originally posted by Tiny Turtle:

Thank you for providing my input with the appropriate nomenclature. (English being a second language coupled with no programming skills sometimes require outside help.)

/Tiny Version History  

It was our fault for using "shorthand" rather than using precise terminology.

[Dale]

Originally posted by FerdFerd:

I hope eventually to be able to exit with a mouse move....  

After you finish swimming with the sharks - - you can run Carousel with MA2.6, and that will probably fulfill your hope.

[Edgar]

This is what I have done so far. This will be long but I have to explain what I went through.

I installed Intellipoint 5.5 on my Laptop. Played with it for a while and no problem detected.

I installed Intellipoint 5.2 on my desktop machine thinking, version 5.2 is what Dale is using. It installed and asked me to reboot. Rebooted and then set up MA2.6 as my screensaver. After 1 minute, screensaver came on and I lost my last focused application.

I reported this on the Forum using my laptop thinking I was able to duplicate it. Came back to my desktop and found my icons are gone. I tried restarting the computer, Ctrl+Alt+Del but failed to restart. Pushed the power button.
When the system came up, my system was running very slow. I figured it was Intellipoint causing the problem so I decided to try to uninstall.

The Program was not in the installed list. I guess the crash has actually put the install in a bad state. Tried reinstalling but says it is already installed. Looked for the installed program and found it in the "Program Files" under "Microsoft Intellipoint 5.2" and in Setup directory there is a .msi file. Ran that and it ask me if I want to remove Intellipoint. Happy, I clicked removed.

Rebooted twice to make sure everything is fine. I tried again but this time I downloaded Intellipoint 5.5, and installed it. Rebooted twice to make sure no half-installed program.

Ran MA2.6 again as screensaver and so far there is no problem.

I am back to square-one. MA2.6 is working just fine again so now I don't have a way to duplicate the bug.

Here is my suggestion.
1. Please try uninstalling the current Intellipoint.
2. Reboot twice. - important
3. Optional but just curious on results - Test MA2.6 if failed or not
4. Download Intellipoint 5.5.
5. Install 5.5.
6. Reboot twice. - important
6. Then do a test on MA2.6 again.