Wishlist for Marine Aquarium 3 and Future - Page 64

johnblommers · 09-30-2005, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

I'd have to come up with a MUCH better collision algorithm in order to make the fish bigger. Already, the larger fish can have a pass-through with eath other or the background if in tight quarters.

Jim,

Why not finish up your 3D background and higher-res textures and ship that before Christmas? Next year you can indulge your fans with additional new features.

In the consulting business our biggest enemy is "scope creep." Allow scope creep into a project and you do more work for the same compensation.

It's good to hear from you again. I hope the arrival of autumn sits well with you.

- john

Jim Sachs · 10-01-2005, 12:46 AM

The 3D background is a huge project which will require an understanding (on my part) of shaders. So far, I've made little progress in that area. As far as shipping something before Xmas, It'll be close just getting these two new fish out the door.

I know what you mean about scope creep, that's why I limited the Aquarium to just what you would see if your monitor was actually filled with water and fish. Let others move their camera through an ocean reef and try to create a whole world while my little program is still doing nicely after 5 years.

Still waiting for Autumn - I think it was close to 90 here in Southern Oregon today. I bought a tractor.

johnblommers · 10-01-2005, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

Still waiting for Autumn - I think it was close to 90 here in Southern Oregon today. I bought a tractor.

My place is on just a horse acre and I get by with a riding lawnmower.

Southern Oregon is like Northern California so you guys would get Autumn effects quite a bit later than we do here in the Pacific Northwest. I really enjoy the change of seasons. Autumn has confirmed its arrival. Just today we had 30 minutes, of rain, hail, thunder and lightning. There are puddles in my puddles.

Autumn is a good time to be working on fish and 3D effects. Nice long dark evenings! But I thought you were the artist and you had developers like Jim O'Connor who dealt with OpenGL codes and shaders?

- John

Tarkus · 10-01-2005, 06:49 PM

Are those Oregon Ducks?

Marian Nichols · 10-01-2005, 07:04 PM

grey back geese

Tarkus · 10-01-2005, 07:09 PM

Well, I knew they weren't Oregon State Beavers.

Jim Sachs · 10-01-2005, 11:00 PM

johnblommers - I looked at a lot of riding mowers, but was quickly convinced they just wouldn't do the job. I'll get a 6-foot mower for the tractor.

Re: Autumn - It rained a little this morning, then Autumn started about 12:35. I swear a lot of those trees were green yesterday.

Yes, Autumn can be a good time for programming. I do all the programming, art, animation, etc., then turn a workable product over to Prolific to add their User-Interface code. Then we send the whole package to Jim O'Connor to port it to the Mac.

schneb · 10-03-2005, 11:35 AM

I asked for the following wishlist item...

"Ability to paste my own background picture. (be nice to have the water reflect over it)"

Moderator Mike (Jav400) said "it is probably is not going to happen."

Mike (or others) is there any reason why this would be difficult or cause problems? Seems like a static image would pose no problems to the refresh rate or animation.

BTW, I was very glad to hear that the swaying of the anemones was being worked on. This would really add a wonderful addition to MA!!

Schneb

Jav400 · 10-03-2005, 11:48 AM

Jim has always considered himself an artist first, and a programmer second. He has said this on many occasions in other posts, and most of the people here readily agree with him. Not that he isn't a great programmer, but he has always said that he is trying to create a realistic work geared more towards an artistic flair than merely trying to prove what can be done. I think one of the things that could truely cause him to "shudder" would be to walk in somewhere and see his work with a background that would be totally inappropriate ( I will leave this to individual interpretation ) and his name in the bottom left corner.

For those reasons I doubt that there will ever be an option like you are requesting.

Jim Sachs · 10-03-2005, 12:25 PM

Michael summed up my position pretty well.

feldon34 · 10-03-2005, 03:30 PM

Plus, the fish have to have something to swim around. It may appear like a static background, but there is actually a lot of 3D geometry in there which puts the shadows/lightplay in the correct places and gives the fish something to swim around. Press W (wireframe) to see what's up. I think creating a new background is beyond the ability of 99.7% of users and we've seen some of the ugliness that the other .3% create when given free rein to modify.

DeepSeaFan · 10-04-2005, 08:35 AM

64 pages and 1,272 posts! This is one long thread!

schneb · 10-04-2005, 10:53 AM

OK, as a fellow artist, I can truly understand that. Can I modify my wishlist request? I would like to have a choice of, say, 3 or 4 backgrounds to choose from. I appreciate the ability to set the darkness of the solid color background, but I would like my aquarium to look like many of the beauties I have seen, with coral going all the way up the back. Here is a comparison of what we have vs what I would like to sea... er see.

Sorry the perspective is incorrect, I did this mockup quite quickly.

Perhaps this is being worked on and that is what is meant by the 3D version? Or does that meant the fish growing in size as they come closer to the viewer? Anyway, just getting ansey for the next version, hopefully by Christmas.

Jav400 · 10-04-2005, 11:46 AM

The 3D version is an entity all to itself, a totally different animal than what you see right now. If you had some 3D shutter glasses to view the aquarium with you could readily tell the difference. Currently, only the fish are truely 3d. The coral is only 2d, but Jim has engineered it in such a way as it looks 3d. Imagine the aquarium is a box 12" square. 1/3 of the way back is a line of coral that stretches from left to right. That is actually like a cardboard cutout standing there, and the center piece is actually back another 1/3 of the distance behind that. So in effect you have 3 rows of empty space between the cutouts.

The new 3D version of the coral will be truely 3D, and approximately 1 3/4 screens wide with camera panning. This is necessary for the future creatures, anemones, and so on to actually be able to crawl around on the coral. Jim has said he envisions a small overhang or maybe a small cave for the free swiming eel and octopus to be able to hide in, plus a totally different look to the coral and placement. Basically everything you see now has to go except for the fish. Just how it will be arranged is up to Jim. It could end up taller and give the effect you are looking for. But with everything that has to be done it won't be by Christmas, at least not this year.

Jim Sachs · 10-04-2005, 12:56 PM

Filling up that much of the background would cut the frame rate in half. With the advances in video cards, it's not out of the question, but would definitely take some research on my part. The fish are already 3D, and do get smaller as they travel away from the camera. Not a whole lot smaller, because the back of the tank is only about 12" away, but try filling the tank with all the same species, and you will easily see that the fish that are farther away are smaller.

The version that I'm trying to get out for Xmas just adds two more fish. The version with the 3D background is still several months off.

johnblommers · 10-04-2005, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

Filling up that much of the background would cut the frame rate in half. With the advances in video cards, it's not out of the question, but would definitely take some research on my part.

Your point is well taken - frame rate is very important and anything less than 20fps is just too jerky IMHO. I set the max frame rate to 20. A background will be a huge texture which has to be composited against the rest of the aquarium's contents, crippling all your low end systems. MA works not too badly with thousands of colors on my old Powerbook G3 which has a mere 8Meg of VRAM and a 500Mhz processor!

Your artistic views concerning backgrounds are well met too. I made a screenshot of the MA application and masked out the coral to make it transparent, then pasted several desktop wallpaper backgrounds over the upper non-masked area. Then I used Backlight 2 at 50-75% transparency to allow these desktop wallpapers to show through the MA screen saver. Frame rates are fine (G5 2Ghz 2CPUs ATI 9800 Pro 256MB VRAM) but the presentation would halt your breath Jim, it does not look nice at all. An aquarium has a glass background after all, let's go with realism. Besides, backgrounds distract.

- john

Jim Sachs · 10-04-2005, 02:37 PM

Any frame rate below about 40 is too jerky for me. I designed the Aquarium to deliver about 20 fps on a Pentium 2 120mhz with an 8-meg video card. I know that time has moved on, and most people have very powerful computers these days, but I still feel bad leaving those loyal early-purchasers behind.

johnblommers · 10-04-2005, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

Any frame rate below about 40 is too jerky for me. I designed the Aquarium to deliver about 20 fps on a Pentium 2 120mhz with an 8-meg video card. I know that time has moved on, and most people have very powerful computers these days, but I still feel bad leaving those loyal early-purchasers behind.

20fps is fine for an engineer and 40fps is good for an artist

What's a factor of two anyway?

My 500Mhz G3 powerbook with its 8Meg video card will let MA 2.0.6 crank out almost 45pfs in thousands of colors mode at 1024x768, which is very smooth indeed and looks great - with minimum shimmering enabled and six fish. CPU usage is about 70-80% at this setting.

So I don't feel left behind at all.

- john

schneb · 10-04-2005, 03:27 PM

I understand how the coral is 2D and the fish are 3D, but thanks for letting me know what is in store for the future.

Yes, I understand about frame rates and not wanting to leave behind those who have older computers, but that is why I asked for a menu to choose. The menu could be as simple as...

1. Solid blue (default-suggested for slower computers)
2. Volcanic rock with algae
3. Coral
4. Coral with static anenomes

Now the user with the nVidia 6800 Ultra Extreme can choose the background he wants, yet still provide the early adopters with the original. So now, with the help of a menu, we have a choice based on our equipment.

And I have to repectfully disagree with the "glass in the back" comment. At least 60% of the saltwater aquariums I have ever seen (including shops and Sea World) were built with a full back wall of volcanic rock, coral and anenomes. The head of our Graphics department has one like that. You cannot see the back glass at all and it is beautiful!

Jim Sachs · 10-04-2005, 03:47 PM

Yes, i've seen a lot of aquariums with a full coral background, and they do look good. Pet World down by you has some nice ones. I'll have to ask them how they keep their frame rate so high

Besides the bandwidth problem, the "wall of coral" look has another issue. When designing the look of the Aquarium, I was shooting for a good balance between coral and clear space which would showcase the fish to better advantage. When the lights go down, the fish are silhouetted against this area.

09-30-2005, 10:03 PM	#1261
johnblommers The Architect Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 756	Scope Creep Originally posted by Jim Sachs: I'd have to come up with a MUCH better collision algorithm in order to make the fish bigger. Already, the larger fish can have a pass-through with eath other or the background if in tight quarters. Jim, Why not finish up your 3D background and higher-res textures and ship that before Christmas? Next year you can indulge your fans with additional new features. In the consulting business our biggest enemy is "scope creep." Allow scope creep into a project and you do more work for the same compensation. It's good to hear from you again. I hope the arrival of autumn sits well with you. - john Reasons people don't watch Star Trek: 60% - It’s for nerds. 39% - The show’s stupid. 01% - My parents were killed by Klingons and it's still too painful.

10-01-2005, 12:46 AM	#1262
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	The 3D background is a huge project which will require an understanding (on my part) of shaders. So far, I've made little progress in that area. As far as shipping something before Xmas, It'll be close just getting these two new fish out the door. I know what you mean about scope creep, that's why I limited the Aquarium to just what you would see if your monitor was actually filled with water and fish. Let others move their camera through an ocean reef and try to create a whole world while my little program is still doing nicely after 5 years. Still waiting for Autumn - I think it was close to 90 here in Southern Oregon today. I bought a tractor. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

10-01-2005, 07:04 PM	#1265
Marian Nichols ~Author~ Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Rocky Mount, NC Posts: 7,429	grey back geese Write paranormal mysteries. Six books so far.

10-03-2005, 11:48 AM	#1269
Jav400 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 9,725	Jim has always considered himself an artist first, and a programmer second. He has said this on many occasions in other posts, and most of the people here readily agree with him. Not that he isn't a great programmer, but he has always said that he is trying to create a realistic work geared more towards an artistic flair than merely trying to prove what can be done. I think one of the things that could truely cause him to "shudder" would be to walk in somewhere and see his work with a background that would be totally inappropriate ( I will leave this to individual interpretation ) and his name in the bottom left corner. For those reasons I doubt that there will ever be an option like you are requesting. Michael Administrator of Inside:SereneScreen Aquarium Forum, Chatroom, Fan Site & *Gallery* DVD Collection

10-03-2005, 12:25 PM	#1270
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	Michael summed up my position pretty well. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

10-01-2005, 06:49 PM	#1264
Tarkus Shark Bytes Join Date: May 2005 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 158	Are those Oregon Ducks?

10-01-2005, 07:09 PM	#1266
Tarkus Shark Bytes Join Date: May 2005 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 158	Well, I knew they weren't Oregon State Beavers.

10-03-2005, 11:35 AM	#1268
schneb Registered Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Redlands, CA Posts: 51	I asked for the following wishlist item... "Ability to paste my own background picture. (be nice to have the water reflect over it)" Moderator Mike (Jav400) said "it is probably is not going to happen." Mike (or others) is there any reason why this would be difficult or cause problems? Seems like a static image would pose no problems to the refresh rate or animation. BTW, I was very glad to hear that the swaying of the anemones was being worked on. This would really add a wonderful addition to MA!! Schneb

10-03-2005, 03:30 PM	#1271
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	Plus, the fish have to have something to swim around. It may appear like a static background, but there is actually a lot of 3D geometry in there which puts the shadows/lightplay in the correct places and gives the fish something to swim around. Press W (wireframe) to see what's up. I think creating a new background is beyond the ability of 99.7% of users and we've seen some of the ugliness that the other .3% create when given free rein to modify. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

10-04-2005, 08:35 AM	#1272
DeepSeaFan Viperfish Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Massachusets, USA Posts: 46	WOW! 64 pages and 1,272 posts! This is one long thread!

10-04-2005, 11:46 AM	#1274
Jav400 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 9,725	The 3D version is an entity all to itself, a totally different animal than what you see right now. If you had some 3D shutter glasses to view the aquarium with you could readily tell the difference. Currently, only the fish are truely 3d. The coral is only 2d, but Jim has engineered it in such a way as it looks 3d. Imagine the aquarium is a box 12" square. 1/3 of the way back is a line of coral that stretches from left to right. That is actually like a cardboard cutout standing there, and the center piece is actually back another 1/3 of the distance behind that. So in effect you have 3 rows of empty space between the cutouts. The new 3D version of the coral will be truely 3D, and approximately 1 3/4 screens wide with camera panning. This is necessary for the future creatures, anemones, and so on to actually be able to crawl around on the coral. Jim has said he envisions a small overhang or maybe a small cave for the free swiming eel and octopus to be able to hide in, plus a totally different look to the coral and placement. Basically everything you see now has to go except for the fish. Just how it will be arranged is up to Jim. It could end up taller and give the effect you are looking for. But with everything that has to be done it won't be by Christmas, at least not this year. Michael Administrator of Inside:SereneScreen Aquarium Forum, Chatroom, Fan Site & *Gallery* DVD Collection

10-04-2005, 12:56 PM	#1275
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	Filling up that much of the background would cut the frame rate in half. With the advances in video cards, it's not out of the question, but would definitely take some research on my part. The fish are already 3D, and do get smaller as they travel away from the camera. Not a whole lot smaller, because the back of the tank is only about 12" away, but try filling the tank with all the same species, and you will easily see that the fish that are farther away are smaller. The version that I'm trying to get out for Xmas just adds two more fish. The version with the 3D background is still several months off. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

10-04-2005, 01:45 PM	#1276
johnblommers The Architect Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 756	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: Filling up that much of the background would cut the frame rate in half. With the advances in video cards, it's not out of the question, but would definitely take some research on my part. Your point is well taken - frame rate is very important and anything less than 20fps is just too jerky IMHO. I set the max frame rate to 20. A background will be a huge texture which has to be composited against the rest of the aquarium's contents, crippling all your low end systems. MA works not too badly with thousands of colors on my old Powerbook G3 which has a mere 8Meg of VRAM and a 500Mhz processor! Your artistic views concerning backgrounds are well met too. I made a screenshot of the MA application and masked out the coral to make it transparent, then pasted several desktop wallpaper backgrounds over the upper non-masked area. Then I used Backlight 2 at 50-75% transparency to allow these desktop wallpapers to show through the MA screen saver. Frame rates are fine (G5 2Ghz 2CPUs ATI 9800 Pro 256MB VRAM) but the presentation would halt your breath Jim, it does not look nice at all. An aquarium has a glass background after all, let's go with realism. Besides, backgrounds distract. - john Reasons people don't watch Star Trek: 60% - It’s for nerds. 39% - The show’s stupid. 01% - My parents were killed by Klingons and it's still too painful.

10-04-2005, 02:37 PM	#1277
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	Any frame rate below about 40 is too jerky for me. I designed the Aquarium to deliver about 20 fps on a Pentium 2 120mhz with an 8-meg video card. I know that time has moved on, and most people have very powerful computers these days, but I still feel bad leaving those loyal early-purchasers behind. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

10-04-2005, 03:08 PM	#1278
johnblommers The Architect Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 756	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: Any frame rate below about 40 is too jerky for me. I designed the Aquarium to deliver about 20 fps on a Pentium 2 120mhz with an 8-meg video card. I know that time has moved on, and most people have very powerful computers these days, but I still feel bad leaving those loyal early-purchasers behind. 20fps is fine for an engineer and 40fps is good for an artist What's a factor of two anyway? My 500Mhz G3 powerbook with its 8Meg video card will let MA 2.0.6 crank out almost 45pfs in thousands of colors mode at 1024x768, which is very smooth indeed and looks great - with minimum shimmering enabled and six fish. CPU usage is about 70-80% at this setting. So I don't feel left behind at all. - john Reasons people don't watch Star Trek: 60% - It’s for nerds. 39% - The show’s stupid. 01% - My parents were killed by Klingons and it's still too painful.

10-04-2005, 03:27 PM	#1279
schneb Registered Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Redlands, CA Posts: 51	I understand how the coral is 2D and the fish are 3D, but thanks for letting me know what is in store for the future. Yes, I understand about frame rates and not wanting to leave behind those who have older computers, but that is why I asked for a menu to choose. The menu could be as simple as... 1. Solid blue (default-suggested for slower computers) 2. Volcanic rock with algae 3. Coral 4. Coral with static anenomes Now the user with the nVidia 6800 Ultra Extreme can choose the background he wants, yet still provide the early adopters with the original. So now, with the help of a menu, we have a choice based on our equipment. And I have to repectfully disagree with the "glass in the back" comment. At least 60% of the saltwater aquariums I have ever seen (including shops and Sea World) were built with a full back wall of volcanic rock, coral and anenomes. The head of our Graphics department has one like that. You cannot see the back glass at all and it is beautiful!

10-04-2005, 03:47 PM	#1280
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	Yes, i've seen a lot of aquariums with a full coral background, and they do look good. Pet World down by you has some nice ones. I'll have to ask them how they keep their frame rate so high Besides the bandwidth problem, the "wall of coral" look has another issue. When designing the look of the Aquarium, I was shooting for a good balance between coral and clear space which would showcase the fish to better advantage. When the lights go down, the fish are silhouetted against this area. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium