More on the Banding, Jim / Feldon Check in please

[BladeRunner]

Ok I tried to save this in a smaller format as a link image but it always added some other form of image degridation. The pic is therefore a link to a 2.2mb bitmap image of the banding I see in the background. (it's 660Kb zipped). I hope the banding is visable to you in the image as I could beat my other half to death when she says she can't see it!. Maybe the banding is just in my eyeballs

<a href="http://www.zytec.worldonline.co.uk/files/banding1.zip"></a>


I'm currently using this system.

Athlon T-bird 1000Mhz @ 1596Mhz (11 x 145) Water-Cooled
Abit KT7-A Raid (water-cooled Chipset)
256mb Mushkin PC133
5x Maxtor 45+ 15.3 gig 4x in a Raid 0/1 (1x for MP3) soon to be water-cooled
Asus v8200 Geforce3 Deluxe (260/560) Water-cooled GPU & Ram
Soundblaster Live
Iiyama VM Pro 451
Enermax 530Watt PSU (soon to be water-cooled)
Win 2k DirectX 8.0, nVidia detonator 21.83

This bannding has been present since the first version of the aquarium I had over a year ago. My system has changed completely since then more than once, it was a Pentium based set-up back then. The only things that remain the same or similar are :-

1. SB live
2. All graphics cards have been Geforce based, Asus GF2 GTS, Asus GF3 Deluxe, (2 of them), and also 2x nVidia reference GF3's
3. Two monitors, one a 17" Mitsubish NF the current Iiyama 19" also (Diamondtron NF tube).
4. It's nothing to do with the overclocking or water-cooling, (all recent, tried at default), fsaa is disabled.
5. Win 98SE, Me & 2000 all tried.

I couldn't tell you off hand how many drivers I've tried in that time but this banding has been present with all of them, (over 20).

Like I said before I will soon be getting a Radeon 8500 which if this banding is still present points to it not being a graphics hardware / driver issue. I hope this might help in finding the problem, and if anyone else sees this background banding on their system post with details of any matching hardware.



Stealth Cooling Project

[riz]

Bladerunner - now don't go beating up your wife but I hate to tell you this, there is no banding in your image

I tried in both 16 and 32 bit color modes - nothing...

The banding your seeing is probably very real, I used to see a ton of banding on AOL before they released 5.0. I made a website for a friend who had AOL, she'd tell me that all the photographs didn't look good, though they looked good on my machine and everyone elses (who didn't have AOL) I then figured out it was a specific AOL jpeg compression problem. The moral, just because I can't see banding on this image doesn't mean your not seeing it...

riz

[feldon34]

I downloaded your BMP and there is absolutely no banding.

I am assuming you have TURNED OFF Quincunx Anti-aliasing using NVMax or other tweaking utility?

[codgio]

I see the banding with the desktop set to 16bit but it goes when I set the desktop to 32bit.

This is on my laptop though, I'll let you know how it looks on me desktop machine once (if) I get my GeForce working.

[BladeRunner]

Thanks for the replies folks, maybe this is a Diamondtron tube thing? what monitors are you using?

I don't get any banding it other coloured windows at all. It is not super obvious in the image, so make sure you look at it real close please.

I just can't think what it could be that has been carried over from all the upgrades, nothing in my system is the same, (including cables, PSU keyboard and mouse. SB live is the only thing, but can't see how it could be that. Fsaa is disabled. (and we never had Quincunx with the GF2 GTS). I lived with it before as I was convinced a 32bit colour version would solve this problem, as you do get banding in game / photographs with 16bit colour. As Jim says it makes no difference and it does kind of look different to the type of banding you get with lack of colours.

It's almost like the darker vertical banding you can get with aperture grill monitors when the grills are misaligned in shipping, but of course this is horizontal, and it's only a bit like it sooooooooo hard to explain but annoying all the same.

I guess if you guys can't see it a visit to the opticians is in order, funny a few of my mates couldn't see the GF2 Ultra rolling lines problem, and that really did exist.

[feldon34]

If you are seeing round kind of webbing on the left and right side of the background, but not in the center, then it is indeed your monitor.

[BladeRunner]

No, it's not moire pattern if that's what you mean?. This is straight and horizontial across the blue green background, looks exactly the same on the 17" Mitsubishi I have here as well. The 19" Iiyama I'm using is about 3 months old, both have diamondtron appature grill tubes. I can see it in the bimap image but it is quite a bit less defined than when the screensaver is running, some detail being lost in the bitmap compression I guess. The banding does look the same though.

Now I have a screen shot that shows it, (to me at least), maybe I should try looking at it on some friends PC's?


Stealth Cooling Project

[Lostboy]

I definitely see banding in this pic when in 16bit, but none in 32bit.

[jjenni]

ok,
I am looking at it but if it is the slight black line running horizontal in your picture just below the yellow fish.
It is a normal line for diamontron or trinitron monitors.
there are actually two fine wires that run across the screen to keep the mask in place. i hope this explains it correct.

[BladeRunner]

No it's not the damper wires, I can live with them although annoying. This is banding effect in the colour fade from blue to green, (difference in colour as it goes up in all the blue and green background area). it also shows in the additional green area you see when in wireframe mode.

I guess it is something only I can see on my system (s) god knows why but I will try to view my image else where. I'm viewing the image in 32bit colour, the banding I get when looking at it in 16 bit colour is much worse than the banding I'm talking about. Again the image does not show the banding I'm getting as bad as it does when running the saver. It is more streaking with the slight colour differences less than a 3mm apart (in 1280 x 1024). This is not thick obvious banding you would see from across the room but subtly difference in the colour so it appears slightly stepped, not a pure colour fade, you'd have to look really close at the image to see it. This still isn't a totally accurate explanation as I can't explain it fully needs to be seen really......

Thanks everyone for taking the time to download the image and look at it, like I said maybe I have banding of the retina

Be getting 2x nVidia Reference GF3 Ti 500's in a few days I'll see if they make any difference.


Stealth Cooling Project

The banding is obvious in 16bit setting but in 32bit, it is hard to see, but I can see banding in the center where the colors are changing, not on the solid colors though. I have 98se.

[Jim Sachs]

The fact that you keep mentioning that you have to look close to see it makes me think that we are not talking about 16-bit banding here.

When banding is present (as when FSAA is on), it is extremely obvious. The entire background is made up of half-inch wide bands which are unmistakable. They also flicker like crazy when the lights go up and down.

[cjmaddy]

I can see it I THINK, but only just. It became more pronounced when I started to doctor the image, to try out a desktop
background. The more sharpness or contrast I added, the more obvious the banding.
I then made a still image of my own, from the program on my own system. The banding, at all stages, is less. But it is there. I'm not sure what all this means, - perhaps someone else can explain? Is it all down to the image processing -(adding sharpness or contrast)? But I do think its there from the start.

The following two jpegs illustrate the effect (if somewhat exaggerated)
Is this the size (if not the severity) of the banding we should be seeing?

jpegs can be found here - www.cjmaddy.co.uk/banding/banding.html

I am using ...
Sony Trinitron 17in G200
GeForce2 MX 200 64MB - 12.41 driver
Windows 98 SE
AMD K6 II 500
448 MB RAM

I would never have seen this without all this effort, and I am more than happy to live with the undoctored image!

[BladeRunner]

cjmaddy

" The more sharpness or contrast I added, the more obvious the banding"

Well done, I think you've hit the nail on the head here!. I also found saving it in jpg format modifies the image, (changes the appearance of the banding like your images). If however you keep it as a 24 bit bitmap the image remains true to original form.



This is a section of the original download. (because of the enormous file size of the full image). I have not "doctored" the image at all, it just has two levels of sharpen and increased contrast / reduced brightness, (done it Photoshop). This emphasizes the banding I am seeing, (of course it is not this bad in the saver), but this is what it looks like and what I've been trying to explain, (all be it poorly).

Thanks for your idea in tweaking the image btw

The image file is a bit large and I would not normally post something this size, but it has to be a bitmap to avoid jpg modification of the image in compression. If it is a problem feldon23 please turn it in to a link.

[Socrates]

For the record the banding is quite pronounced in 16 bit in your picture, but gone in 32 bit. Of course, that's just the screen shot. I don't see the banding in the actual screen saver.

I am using a KDS VS190 (el cheapo, standard type of CRT) on a Geforce2 MX, K62-500, 356MB.

[Tiny Turtle]

<Blade> You began this topic by telling that the banding has appeared on all your systems (nice current one, btw) with the SB Live and a nVidia card as the common denominator. My question now is:

Have you seen the SS without the banding on any system?

Since the human eye automatically increase the contrast in gradients like these, causing the part of a bar closest to a bar of a slightly lighter color to appear darker than the rest of the bar (quite evident in the image of your "nail on the head"-post). Considering that one set of eyes perceive color different fron the next set, your simply could be extra sensitive to banding (no joke).

[cjmaddy]

I think I should stress, that like SocratesLGK, I had not seen any banding at all in the actual screen saver.
.... Until today!
My findings above were only with BladeRunner's and my own still images!
Perhaps, I thought, it's all due to the process of capturing the still image - I don't know - is there an expert out there?
But I do see banding in BladeRunner's picture, as downloaded, and my own still image - both undoctored, and in 32-bit.

.... But today I removed all fish and bubbles (only to ease concentration) and .... I CAN make out the banding!
JUST! - The width of the bands on a 17in monitor @ 1024x768 is about 2 to 3 mm. It is very slight, and
only on the blue/green background.

I think I now regret looking for this. It really is very slight, and I repeat, I am more than happy to live with it!
With the fish returned, the bubbles on, and the 3D coral to come, this will still be the best $20 you could spend!
It IS fantastic!

[codgio]

After a lot of intense studying of the background, I think I can see the banding, but I would never have noticed it if I hadn't spent such a long time looking for it, and even now that I think I can see it, I'm not in the least bit bothered by it I'm not even sure that I'm not just imagining it.

FYI, I can see it best when I'm not studying the screen too closely, a bit like the catching movement in the corner of your eye phenomenon.

[feldon34]

<a href="https://www.feldoncentral.com/Sachs/forum/Widescreen2.jpg"></a>

This is a mockup graphic created by me and is not based in reality. Jim has given no indication that any background like this is possible or in development. Please DO NOT e-mail SereneScreen asking where to get it. I created this prototype in Photoshop.

[cjmaddy]

BladeRunner
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Just a thought, - Could this be connected with the type of construction of Diamondtron and Trinitron
tubes, - the aperture grills with slots not holes? Could this be causing the banding effect in some way?
The effect would then be "printed" on to the captured still image, and could then be exaggerated by any subsequent
image processing. The banding effect does seam to be restricted to large areas of fine gradation from dark to
light, or blue to green. ... Both your monitors are Diamondtron, and mine is a Trinitron.... Just a thought!
Could this be the price we pay for buying "the best" monitor?

- Anyone like to comment? (p.s. - We know about the damper wires!)

cjmaddy