Win XP and TNT2 M64 video...No go!!

[jonjonbear]

Hello group...
well I went an purchased a new video card, the TNT M64 32 meg and I can't get the screen saver to work..When I run the saver, I get the small black box that blows up to the full screen but instead of going away and showing the aquarium I get a full screen, windows box totally black with the sound of bubbles..It stays that way for about 30 seconds then reboots..
I went to Nvidias web page and downloaded the newest detonator driver, but during installation I get that warning that the software has not been tested. I went ahead and installed it and the damn computer wouldn't boot..I had to go into the boot screen and tell it to go back to a previous setup...

Anyone else have this problem??? I have directx 8.1 by the way..

Thanks so much...John

Oh, it's a AMD K6 III 400 meg, with 192 megs of ram..

[feldon34]

The "newest drivers" at nVidia always always ALWAYS make things worse. Even worse than the godawful nVidia drivers Microsoft includes with XP.

You need to install OLDER better drivers in this case.

https://www.feldoncentral.com/Sachs/help.html

When you install the appropriate driver, it will keep asking you "Do you want to keep the newer file?" and you have to answer No each time. Otherwise you'll have some pieces installed of one version, and then all the buggy "new" files of 12.90 installed as well.

Post here if you have any further trouble getting this to work. I posted a 15 step guide to reinstalling nVidia drivers but the search engine doesn't seem smart enough to let me search for that.

[Coelacanth]

I beg to differ. I have Windows XP on two machines -- one has a TNT2 card and the other an original Geforce 256, both older cards -- and the newest nVidia driver works like a champ on both. I had a blue screen problem for a while in XP but this no longer occurs, and I believe it was due to an overheating problem which I've since corrected.

These drivers might have been tested by you within the very limited test methodology of making sure the Sachs aquarium works properly with them, but nevertheless I would really hesitate to install a several-years-old 6.47 driver version on a Windows XP system. It's obviously going to be an unsigned driver, and it was obviously developed long before XP was a reality.

It might work just fine, and you might never run into problems, but I think your site is probably the only one on the planet (certainly the only one I have encountered, and I visit a lot of graphics sites) that have such an ancient driver as their "recommended" driver for XP. A blanket statement like "the newest drivers always always ALWAYS make things worse" is just plain, downright false. Everything's just fine on my systems using the latest drivers, thank you very much.

[feldon34]

You know, if the new drivers worked properly in all configurations, I'd recommend them. They don't, and it is a cruel joke to try to send people off downloading the "latest greatest" crap that nVidia.com wants to dish out.

People have white fish and white coral, people run out of memory, their computers crash when they bring up the Settings box, they crash after 2 mintutes, they crash because a background app tries to take over, they crash just because it's the nVidia thing to do. That's what people get for trying the latest drivers.

I didn't just pull these drivers out of my ass. These are drivers that I and SereneScreen have selected by PROCESS OF ELIMINATION.

May I say that you are in the small minority of people who have had complete success by keeping up with the endless stream of new driver revisions from nVidia.

I'm running 6.47 drivers on my TnT Riva on Windows 2000 and it works perfectly, running Direct3D and OpenGL software. I have absolutely no plan to change what's on here, and absolutely no plan to change the driver recommendations at my website.

Coelacanth, please use the search engine here to read the hundreds of posts from people using the "latest nVidia drivers" all going through a small nightmare just trying to get a stable system.

If you think you have all the answers, start by answering jonjonbear's problem above.

I MIGHT be inclined to change the 2000/XP driver recommendation for GeForce 2s and 3s, but never for the TnT Rivas and never for Windows 9x.

[Coelacanth]

My my. Well, I guess I sort of expected this kind of reply from you. Seems to be pretty typical...if you are challenged by someone you launch a smart-ass personal attack. Shall we examine your post? Yes, let's.

You know, if the new drivers worked properly in all configurations, I'd recommend them.

NO driver works properly in all configurations. Period! Not even your "recommended" ones. Some may work in more configurations than others, true, but 6.47 sure ain't it.

They don't, and it is a cruel joke to try to send people off downloading the "latest greatest" crap that nVidia.com wants to dish out.

Once upon a time a few years ago, 6.47 WAS the "latest greatest." I guess by your logic (every new nVidia driver is crap) then it was crap at the time of its release -- and in a few years, 23.11 will be just fine.

The point is that no company puts out a "perfect" driver -- ever -- and nVidia has put out a lot of drivers that have worked just fine and dandy. If you want to see crappy drivers, check out ATI. Their track record is worse than Nvidia's. And a large part of nVidia's "bad driver" reputation comes from the fact that the majority of the drivers out there are leaked beta versions. The official releases have actually been pretty consistently stable. (For that matter, there have only been a couple of betas that have caused problems.)

People have white fish and white coral, people run out of memory, their computers crash when they bring up the Settings box, they crash after 2 mintutes, they crash because a background app tries to take over, they crash just because it's the nVidia thing to do. That's what people get for trying the latest drivers.

This is with the 23.11 drivers (the latest)? Sorry to tell you, but if all of those problems are happening with this driver installed, then it ain't just the driver that's the problem. There was a problem a little while back with a driver causing an blue-screen "infinite loop" message, and it was widely posted on Usenet, but that was the only problem of any import, and that was solved in the latest release.

I didn't just pull these drivers out of my ass. These are drivers that I and SereneScreen have selected by PROCESS OF ELIMINATION.

Well, good for you. Did I ever even imply that you didn't use some sort of testing methodology to make your decision? No. In fact, I specifically used the word "tests." So don't get all huffy with me.

And so you used PROCESS OF ELIMINATION. Big frickin' deal. That tells me next to zilch. So, what exactly was the methodology and criteria used that DETERMINED WHETHER a driver was accepted or eliminated? That would be more helpful than just saying you "tested" and "used process of elimination" in your decision.

May I say that you are in the small minority of people who have had complete success by keeping up with the endless stream of new driver revisions from nVidia.

I never said I've had "complete success" with all nVidia drivers. I never even said I've always kept up with the endless stream of new driver revisions. I'm sure I've missed a few driver releases here and there (mostly beta ones).

Most people have had satisfactory results with the new drivers, however, and I really don't know *anyone* else that would still recommend an old driver like 6.47, especially under Windows XP. Not that it won't work, necessarily -- I'm sure it probably does, at least with stuff that doesn't use the features of the newer drivers. But you're about the only one recommending it. And my post was mainly just taking exception to your assertion that it is always always ALWAYS a bad idea to get "new" drivers from nVidia. No it's not. Not always. Not even ALMOST always.

I'm running 6.47 drivers on my TnT Riva on Windows 2000 and it works perfectly, running Direct3D and OpenGL software. I have absolutely no plan to change what's on here, and absolutely no plan to change the driver recommendations at my website.

Goody for you. But don't make blanket statements that include the word "always" when it clearly is NOT "always."

Coelacanth, please use the search engine here to read the hundreds of posts from people using the "latest nVidia drivers" all going through a small nightmare just trying to get a stable system.

Morgan, please use any number of search engines and graphics sites to see the hundreds of posts from people that have had no trouble whatsoever with the new drivers and have posted positive benchmarks with them. And then do another search for people that are running XP with driver 6.47 and see how many results you get.

Also keep in mind that on a forum such as yours, people usually search these things out in order to post problems that they have with getting a certain card or driver to work -- they're not usually going to search out this site and post something like, "I just want to say that the aquarium works fine with my video card/driver." People most frequently post these things when something DOESN'T work. If you just look at that, it's a skewed perspective.

Go ahead. Run the old 6.47 drivers. If it works, great. But don't go around saying that that is ALWAYS what should be done, and that nVidia's drivers are ALWAYS crap. Because that's just plain, absolutely, downright false. Period!

If you think you have all the answers, stary by answering jonjonbear's problem above.

Oh, go soak your smart-ass head. I never said I had all the answers; never even alluded to that. I was simply refuting your blanket statement about the drivers. Don't go trying to win the argument by launching personal attacks and challenging my intelligence, because I sure as hell won't let that pass. Got it?

I MIGHT be inclined to change the 2000/XP driver recommendation for GeForce 2s and 3s, but never for the TnT Rivas and never for Windows 9x.

Fine. Whatever.


I'm outta here.

[jonjonbear]

Hello Group..
Well after hours of working, I never did get XP and my brand new TNT card to work..I even tried reformatting and reinstalling XP, tried again the "XP drivers" from Nvidia..Of course XP said it "wasn't tested"..But I installed it any way..Same thing, no boot..Then I tried "windows update" which included a new Nvidia driver..Same thing..No boot..
So...I reformatted again, put on a fresh install of Windows 2000 Pro, and it works beautiful...I now have fishies swimming effortlessly across the screen...Funny I have XP on my Atlon with Nvidia Gforce MX400 on my other machine and never had a problem..Seems that the TNT is different..But like I said in an earlier post, this machine is ONLY a server, running Homeseer home automation software.....
Thanks for all the comments and emails..Everyone here is so helpful...John

[feldon34]

Sorry to hear all the work you had to do to get a system going that would run the Aquarium.

Did you try the "ancient" 6.47 drivers at my website?

http://www.FeldonCentral.com/Sachs/help.html

They work great on my TnT Riva on Windows 2000.

[jonjonbear]

Hello Feldon!
PS by the way you have always been most helpful for me on the TIVO board too..

I wish I had seen your message beforehand..I tried everything I could but could not get things to work right when I decided to redo the machine..Now that I have it working I am afraid to try to upgrade to XP and install your drivers..I really like XP and it runs flawlessly on my other machine..
But, 2000 seems to make this machine happy and everything is working so maybe I will leave this one alone..

Thanks again for your help!! John

[feldon34]

Coelacanth,

I replied truthfully, with the experiences people here have had with nVidia's drivers as my guide.

I suggested you use the search engine HERE and see what success or failure people have had with nVidia's latest drivers with the Aquarium and other apps on THIS forum.

I was very careful not to personally attack you, but instead express my frustration at nVidia over their buggy drivers (and yes, I know ATI are worse). However, you have crossed that line.

Please be aware that flames and personal attacks are not welcome on this forum. I'd hate to see a long-time member of the forum be asked to leave. If you have a problem with me personally, please take it up with my e-mail box.

If you feel the need to reply further to this topic, then please be constructive.

<li>Start a poll or topic asking what drivers and cards people have.

<li>Start e-mailing those benchmark websites and ask them what kind of stability they are experiencing with the Aquarium.

<li>Get 20 people to e-mail me that they've had no problems with X driver version on Y video card running the Aquarium, Quake, and other apps.

Why 20? Because I've got twice that many telling me that the newer drivers DON'T work.


I'm sure you can think of other solutions even better than the ones I just listed!

[Jav400]

Coelacanth,

I hate to see things like this happen on the forum. Unfortunately, they have in the past, albeit very infrequently, but they do happen. The only comment that I have at this point is to reitterate our policies of being a member of this forum. I think, and I may be wrong, but in your 2nd post you used the word "challenge", which I frown upon, and to me, your first post seemed to be of this nature.

It has long been our policy here that no "challenges", "flaming", or "trolling for arguments", will be tolerated. You have been here for quite some time and have always been helpful in the past, I fail to understand why you feel the need to challenge anyone at this point.

I basically look for several things in any posts here.

If you or anyone else has any constructive comments to make, they are always more than welcome to post them. That after all is why we are here.

If you feel that there is something that you would like to make a comment about that is not "forum worthy" then you are always welcome to Private Message, or email, feldon23 or myself directly, and we will be more than happy to discuss anything you wish.

Since no one is obligated to be here, I would hope that people who choose not to follow these policies for the benefit of themselves and others here would just choose to leave. There is no room for personal attacks, or posts of that nature. Repeated occurences from people who disrupt the forum will be enforced from our end. I would hate to see that happen in your case, but "challenges" or antagonism on the forum cannot be allowed to happen for the benefit of everyone here. I would prefer to just chalk this one up to a bad day and let it go at that. I hope you feel the same.

As far as the drivers recommended, I agree with Morgan on this point. Nvidia like anyone else writing new software , makes mistakes in new drivers that have to be found and corrected over time by trial and error. I am sure that when those drivers came out they were just as buggy as any others, but over time they have proven to be some of the most stable for this purpose, which after all is why we are here, to benefit each other and help with this program. Over time I am sure that when other driver sets are "proofed" and the bugs corrected we will update our recommendations to reflect this.

Once again, I hope that this can be put behind us and forgotten.

[Tiny Turtle]

So what, Michael? Coelacanth didn't like the concept of "always always ALWAYS ", and objected to it in a (IMO) civil tone. I believe he used the word "challenge" in a justified way considering Morgan's reply.

Morgan: Even if 6.47 is the best driver (note the IF, everybody) for some configurations, stating that it always always ALWAYS makes things worse with the latest version just isn't true when Coelacanth's XP/TNT2/23.11 combo works out alright, eh?

I, and everybody else, appreciates the tons of work you plow into this forum and the 6.47 driver version would very possibly have been the proper solution if jonjonbear hadn't installed Win2k instead. Just go a little easier on the absolutes, OK?

/Calle

[gregzbobo]

I personally will stick with the latest nvidia reference drivers. Nvidia designed the chipsets these drivers are supposed to "drive", so I am pretty certain they know what the heck they are doing when the write and release a new driver for said chipsets. These folks don't write these drivers just for fun. They do it to increase stability, compatibility with software, and to increase framerates. Case in point; I downloaded and installed the 6.47 drivers that feldon23 recommends. When I did so, I had to retune the settings on my monitor. That was the first indication that I would dislike these drivers. Second, when the screensaver started, and I hit the s key to show the fps, I was averaging between 45 and 60 fps, when I was averaging 65-80 fps with the 23.11 drivers. I'm running a geforce 2 mx200 32 meg card, not a TNT card which it seems most of you are running from what I have seen so far, so I have no idea what effects any sort of drivers have on that chipset. But if the effect is anything like what I suffered from when I tried the 6.47 drivers, I can do nothing but recommend the latest drivers that the chipset manufacturer designed for the chips that they manufacture. As for your problem jonjonbear, I am sorry to hear about that. I am running WinXP on my machine, and have done nothing but love it. Perhaps you should check into getting some tech support from nvidia, perhaps they have a workaround or something that could fix the problem you are having. Doesn't hurt to try. Thanks for your time.

[Coelacanth]

Tiny Turtle got it right. That was exactly what I was doing in my original reply.

Now, I will respond to your latest posts, and this will be my last post here. As I said, I've had it, and I'm outta here.

I suggested you use the search engine HERE and see what success or failure people have had with nVidia's latest drivers with the Aquarium and other apps on THIS forum.

Yes, I fully understood that from the beginning. (Why would you think otherwise?) And I simply invited you to look beyond the limited scope of this forum at what others everywhere else on the Internet are saying.

I was very careful not to personally attack you, but instead express my frustration at nVidia over their buggy drivers (and yes, I know ATI are worse). However, you have crossed that line.

On the contrary, you have always been adept at issuing little flank attacks, needling people -- and then subsequently denying that you have done this, trying to couch your language in the guise of "civility," and then issuing warnings of deletion of either threads or user accounts to those who take offense to you. I could rattle off a list just in THIS particular thread, but suffice it to say that even just your "Hey, if you think you have all the answers, then how about solving jojobear's problem" comment is proof enough. (Translation: "You DON'T have all the answers, so either put up or shut up, and stop challenging my statements.") For one thing, I never claimed to have all the answers. Furthermore, I rarely get this ticked off, and I would not have replied to your post in the manner that I did if you had actually BEEN "very careful not to personally attack" me.

If you feel the need to reply further to this topic, then please be constructive.

Heh.

[Translation: "You are being destructive (but of course, I myself am not)."]

This, coming from someone that posts destructive, smartass comments and then thinks HE is being constructive by doing so. I'll leave it up to you to decide whether this latest post of mine is "constructive" or not. Bottom line is you pissed me off, so I'm giving you the "what for." If you don't like that, or don't think it's "constructive" enough, then tough. Suck it up.

Start a poll or topic asking what drivers and cards people have.

Start e-mailing those benchmark websites and ask them what kind of stability they are experiencing with the Aquarium.

Get 20 people to e-mail me that they've had no problems with X driver version on Y video card running the Aquarium, Quake, and other apps.

Why 20? Because I've got twice that many telling me that the newer drivers DON'T work.

In case you didn't quite get what Morgan is REALLY trying to say here, then here is the translation: "OK, smarty, if you think you're right, then here is a challenge for you [speaking of snide personal challenges, this is it folks]: I challenge you to come up with 20 people that have had no problems with the new drivers. 'Cause I bet you can't, or you won't take the time to do it. And therefore I win. I challenge you to ask all of these websites you go to frequently and ask them what kind of stability they are experiencing, because I don't believe your story and I bet you won't get any good responses from these websites either, and therefore I win. I challenge you to start a poll here asking what drivers people use, because as I've said before, there have been HUNDREDS of posts here complaining about the drivers, so of course I expect the members of this forum to respond to the poll in my favor, and therefore I win. You think you're so smart and you know what you're talking about? OK, smarty, then let's see if you can come up with 20 people that can corroborate your findings. If you can't do that, then you might as well shut up, because I win."

Please be aware that flames and personal attacks are not welcome on this forum. I'd hate to see a long-time member of the forum be asked to leave. If you have a problem with me personally, please take it up with my e-mail box.

This is a public thread, and the animosity was started by YOU, not me. It is only fair that I respond to you here in this public forum, then, as well as debate the issue that I had originally debated. (And that is ALL I was doing in the first place -- debating your choice of driver and your statement that the newer nVIdia drivers ALWAYS cause problems. I was debating an issue -- not attacking YOU.) It is only appropriate that I respond to you here, where the comments were first made, since YOU instigated them in PUBLIC in the first place. Like you say, personal attacks are not welcome in this forum. Yep, good advice to follow -- even for forum owners and administrators, ya know?

But as I said, I'm outta here anyway. Last post from me. Goodbye. Go ahead and delete my account. I've had it.

. I think, and I may be wrong, but in your 2nd post you used the word "challenge", which I frown upon, and to me, your first post seemed to be of this nature.

You're right. It WAS a challenge. A challenge of a certain policy, of an IDEA, of a STATEMENT that was made -- NOT a challenge of a person! NOT a personal attack. I was simply challenging (a) the statement that updating to the latest nVidia driver is "always" going to cause problems, and (b) that 6.47 would be the best driver to install under XP. In that context, the word "challenge" is NOT something to be frowned upon. It is simply healthy debate, period.

There is no room for personal attacks, or posts of that nature. Repeated occurences from people who disrupt the forum will be enforced from our end.

I completely agree. There is no room for personal attacks here -- so go tell that to Feldon, because this is exactly why I responded to him in the manner I did. I don't like being attacked. I don't like smartass comments and veiled put-downs. And when they're directed to me, and ESPECIALLY when they're directed to me BY THE FORUM OWNER, I'm not going to just sit here and take it. I thought my original post was absolutely reasonable -- simply a contrary opinion and statement saying that I don't think that blanket statements like the one Morgan made are true.

Go ahead and try to tell me that it is all my fault, that I'm the one who should be punished here, and that I'm now being threatened with account deletion for my "offenses." Go ahead and try it. I'm not buying it.

In short, clean up your own house first, then maybe, just maybe, I'll listen to you.

Until then, Adios.

[feldon34]

It's sad that we have reached a point that you are so angered by my comments.

Hundreds of exasperated users have had serious problems with the latest nVidia drivers and have contacted myself and SereneScreen trying to find a solution, demanding a refund, etc. The only safe solution I have found is to list what might be considered "ancient" drivers.

The Aquarium is written on DirectX 6 code, which is probably part of why we have this driver situation.

If you want to deny that any such condition exists, then there is no foundation upon which this forum topic can successfully build towards any kind of positive resolution, namely finding newer drivers that I can recommend without worry.

I'm closing this thread, but I am not closing my mind to listing newer drivers on my website. But I can't do it just because a few cutting edge users scream at me.