Where should this be posted? (filesize differences)

JohnWho · 01-22-2010, 08:04 AM

This was posted in a thread that is closed with the note that there is no need for a separate thread.

So, where should it be?

Installer version of Beta10d, downloaded from SereneScreen on June 5, 2009, contains:

MarineAquarium3.scr - file size 6,578,176

Installer version of Beta10d, downloaded from SereneScreen on January 18, 2010, contains:

MarineAquarium3.scr - file size 6,565,888

cjmaddy · 01-22-2010, 08:45 AM

Does it need posting at all....?

This is the third time this information has been posted, - and I still don't know what use it can possibly be!

https://www.feldoncentral.com/forums...71&postcount=1
https://www.feldoncentral.com/forums...3&postcount=26
https://www.feldoncentral.com/forums...08&postcount=1

Dale · 01-22-2010, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by cjmaddy:

- and I still don't know what use it can possibly be!

It allows anybody to identify precisely what MarineAquarium3.scr version 10d file that they are using. That ability may or may not be useful to somebody at some time. I identified the difference, and thought it might be useful to somebody in the future - so I decided to post it, rather than keeping the information to myself. In my opinion, that's part of the usefulness of this forum - posting information that somebody might need in the future, so that it can be found, rather than keeping it "secret".

Having decided to post it, I also thought that if I posted it to an existing thread, it might be viewed as trying to contradict Jim's statement that (paraphrasing) all version 10d MarineAquarium3.scr files are the same. I have no information that the two MarineAquarium3.scr files have any functional difference (except for file size) - perhaps the difference is what compiler was used, or whatever. My experience says that there must be some difference in code, but perhaps that's totally immaterial - or perhaps identifying the difference may be important to somebody at some future time.

So, instead of posting it to one of the existing threads (and perhaps making somebody think that I was contradicting Jim), I initially posted it to a new thread. That thread was closed by the moderator, with the comment "There is no need for this separate thread."

Given a closed thread identified as "no need", I believed that the thread would be deleted in the future - so I picked another related thread to post the information.

Bottom line: if the information is accurate, I believe it should be preserved for future reference. If it's not currently useful or interesting, it shouldn't take a response as long as this one, to justify it's existence.

cjmaddy · 01-22-2010, 10:31 AM

I would imagine that the fact that the file size has varied over the past seven months, is of no consequence whatsoever.

Jim Sachs · 01-22-2010, 10:47 AM

Exactly right, Cliff. They are all v10d. When one is ready which is not 10d, announcements will be made. Otherwise, there's no reason for everyone to be clogging up the server, downloading the exact same file they already have. Even on the rare occasion when something might be changed, it wouild be so insiginifcant that if we were to even announce it, you guys would ask, "Why are you bothering us with this stuff?". For example, Edgar might change some obscure piece of code that is not even currently used, but will make it easier to add other things in the future. Or maybe he simply added or subtracted some illegal Key Codes from the Kill List.

Dale · 01-22-2010, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by cjmaddy:

I would imagine that the fact that the file size has varied over the past seven months, is of no consequence whatsoever.

Well, the executable files are clearly different.

The possible significance is in the fact that the file size is different for two "identical" Beta10d MarineAquarium3.scr files - since they both identify themselves as Version 10d.

As you will recall, there were cases with MA2 where files with the same file name had behavior that was different in important ways. For example https://www.feldoncentral.com/forums...8075#post68075 ... the only way to easily tell which file was being used, was by the file size.

cjmaddy · 01-22-2010, 11:09 AM

Dale, - why don't you read Jim's reply ?

harris · 01-22-2010, 12:07 PM

Does anyone else also see another thead locked shortly.

feldon34 · 01-22-2010, 12:14 PM

It all seems very unnecessary to me.

Jim hasn't turned in a new version of the Aquarium since last year. Any variations in the filesize would be due to the SCR file being rebuilt at Prolific on a different system than originally built it.

But 10d is 10d. There are no graphical or feature differences between the files you've linked.

Dale · 01-22-2010, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by cjmaddy:

Dale, - why don't you read Jim's reply ?

Thanks. I was writing my reply (slowly) at the same time that Jim posted his reply. This forum software doesn't seem to have a feature that notifies people that "another reply has been posted while you were writing..." - so I didn't know about Jim's reply until mine was posted.

I don't see anything in my postings that contradicts Jim's - nor anything in his that contradicts mine. I posted accurate information. Jim posted possible explanations.

I was quite willing to initially just post my information for future reference if needed, and leave it at that.

I do totally agree with Jim's comment: "there's no reason for everyone to be clogging up...."

Today's clogging seems to be mostly in response to your questions.

cjmaddy · 01-22-2010, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by harris:

Does anyone else also see another thead locked shortly.

..... The sooner the better! ...

JohnWho · 01-22-2010, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by Dale:

Given a closed thread identified as "no need", I believed that the thread would be deleted in the future - so I picked another related thread to post the information.

Let me be clear -

I started this thread because the other one was "closed" with the comment there was no need (and maybe an implication that the information had been discussed and resolved before), but there was no link in the closed forum to the earlier data.

That is really what I was looking for - if a thread is closed because it has been discussed and resolved, I believe, as a courtesy, the thread closer should provide a link to the other thread.

I thought the question about the different files sizes is a reasonable question, and wondered about it myself when I saw the post.

JohnWho · 01-22-2010, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

Exactly right, Cliff. They are all v10d. When one is ready which is not 10d, announcements will be made. Otherwise, there's no reason for everyone to be clogging up the server, downloading the exact same file they already have. Even on the rare occasion when something might be changed, it wouild be so insiginifcant that if we were to even announce it, you guys would ask, "Why are you bothering us with this stuff?". For example, Edgar might change some obscure piece of code that is not even currently used, but will make it easier to add other things in the future. Or maybe he simply added or subtracted some illegal Key Codes from the Kill List.

Jim -

I understand the process of coding software somewhat, which is partly why I am puzzled: "... Edgar might change some obscure piece of code that is not even currently used, but will make it easier to add other things in the future. Or maybe he simply added or subtracted some illegal Key Codes from the Kill List." - isn't that exactly why there are different "build" numbers, or versions, etc.?

If, for example, "adding or subtracting some illegal Key Codes from the Kill List" is an important thing to do, don't you want to know which copies of your "beta10d" are floating around with the correct list and which have the old list? Wouldn't something like a "build" number (or maybe a compiled file size?) help with that?

Same with a "...change (to) some obscure piece of code that is not even currently used, but will make it easier to add other things in the future." Wouldn't it help to know that the change from build 1234 to build 1235 was that alteration?

I believe it would be helpful to keep track of these things in some logical way. This way, if someone downloads the "beta10d" and has a problem, you would know that the problem they are having might have been caused, or prevented, by a newer build number.

But, hey, I'm just enjoying the product. As long as your system is working for you, I'm fine out here in "user land".

Curious, but fine.

John

harris · 01-22-2010, 05:34 PM

JohnWho;

I understand what you are saying and trying to do. It is admirable, but when the designer/owner of the software has said what he said about the subject, any continued discussion would seem futile. It reminds me of the old saying: to continue would be like trying to flog (beat) a dead horse to make it pull a load".

Maybe some of the suggestions that you and Dale have made to Jim without receiving an answer to your satisfaction should be kept in a journal. When he has fixed the collision avoidance problem bring the issues up again and I'm sure he would be much more agreeable to fix them.

Just my 2-cents.

JohnWho · 01-22-2010, 06:08 PM

I understand, harris.

I just wanted to make sure that it was understood that I wasn't attempting to be argumentative, just helpful. I'm hoping my intentions aren't misunderstood.

Jim Sachs · 01-22-2010, 06:22 PM

With all the fascinating, exciting, and vital things to do in this world, I can't believe anyone would spend even a moment of their limited existance on this subject. Of course Edgar can track his changes, but there is absolutely no reason anyone else should give this a second (or even first) thought. I assure you that if even a pixel had been changed, I'd make an announcement. Now I need to go sort my socks, which is 100,000 times more interesting a hobby than monitoring arcane build numbers or filesizes.

JohnWho · 01-22-2010, 09:37 PM

This is really odd - in this forum:

MA3 - READ THiISFIRST

we are invited to participate and "be part of the construction process".

Yet, we are insulted when we are?

Jim Sachs · 01-22-2010, 10:14 PM

Beta testing is about reporting bugs.

A difference in Build numbers is not a bug.
A difference in filesize is not a bug.

It's not my purpose to insult anybody. My sole purpose is to get everyone to drop this subject, and think about something else. Move along, folks - nothing to see here.

Nicki · 01-22-2010, 11:25 PM

JohnWho and Dale. We really appreciate your attention to detail and desire to help in the development of the aquarium. Really we do. Your comments have been noted and logged. Definitely not ignored. Everyone here is really nice and polite and no insult to anyone was intended I'm sure. This issue has been accepted for future refence. I'm sure we can all just let it be until perhaps in the future the topic needs to be revisited.

And on that note, in one of the threads in which this was previously discussed I was dismissive of what other people find important, and for that I apologise.

cjmaddy · 01-23-2010, 04:43 AM

If it was up to me, I would be quoting Cromwell.

My final comment on this subject.... JohnWho and Dale: This sort of behaviour can only be interpreted as disruptive to the smooth running of this forum, which for the major portion of the nine years I have been here, we have all been privileged to enjoy

This endless returning to the same, unnecessary, closed, and pointless topics, is argumentative and insulting to all, but in particular to Jim himself, who has had to waste so much effort explaining for the Nth time, that these changes of build numbers and/or filesizes are of no consequence.
.... I suggest you accept that and allow us all to move on.

01-22-2010, 08:04 AM	#1
JohnWho Registered Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Tampa Bay Area, Florida Posts: 486	Where should this be posted? (filesize differences) This was posted in a thread that is closed with the note that there is no need for a separate thread. So, where should it be? Installer version of Beta10d, downloaded from SereneScreen on June 5, 2009, contains: MarineAquarium3.scr - file size 6,578,176 Installer version of Beta10d, downloaded from SereneScreen on January 18, 2010, contains: MarineAquarium3.scr - file size 6,565,888

01-22-2010, 10:47 AM	#5
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,787	Exactly right, Cliff. They are all v10d. When one is ready which is not 10d, announcements will be made. Otherwise, there's no reason for everyone to be clogging up the server, downloading the exact same file they already have. Even on the rare occasion when something might be changed, it wouild be so insiginifcant that if we were to even announce it, you guys would ask, "Why are you bothering us with this stuff?". For example, Edgar might change some obscure piece of code that is not even currently used, but will make it easier to add other things in the future. Or maybe he simply added or subtracted some illegal Key Codes from the Kill List. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

01-22-2010, 12:14 PM	#9
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	It all seems very unnecessary to me. Jim hasn't turned in a new version of the Aquarium since last year. Any variations in the filesize would be due to the SCR file being rebuilt at Prolific on a different system than originally built it. But 10d is 10d. There are no graphical or feature differences between the files you've linked. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

01-22-2010, 06:22 PM	#16
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,787	With all the fascinating, exciting, and vital things to do in this world, I can't believe anyone would spend even a moment of their limited existance on this subject. Of course Edgar can track his changes, but there is absolutely no reason anyone else should give this a second (or even first) thought. I assure you that if even a pixel had been changed, I'd make an announcement. Now I need to go sort my socks, which is 100,000 times more interesting a hobby than monitoring arcane build numbers or filesizes. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

01-22-2010, 10:14 PM	#18
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,787	Beta testing is about reporting bugs. A difference in Build numbers is not a bug. A difference in filesize is not a bug. It's not my purpose to insult anybody. My sole purpose is to get everyone to drop this subject, and think about something else. Move along, folks - nothing to see here. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

01-22-2010, 08:45 AM	#2
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	Does it need posting at all....? This is the third time this information has been posted, - and I still don't know what use it can possibly be! https://www.feldoncentral.com/forums...71&postcount=1 https://www.feldoncentral.com/forums...3&postcount=26 https://www.feldoncentral.com/forums...08&postcount=1

01-22-2010, 10:27 AM	#3
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by cjmaddy: - and I still don't know what use it can possibly be! It allows anybody to identify precisely what MarineAquarium3.scr version 10d file that they are using. That ability may or may not be useful to somebody at some time. I identified the difference, and thought it might be useful to somebody in the future - so I decided to post it, rather than keeping the information to myself. In my opinion, that's part of the usefulness of this forum - posting information that somebody might need in the future, so that it can be found, rather than keeping it "secret". Having decided to post it, I also thought that if I posted it to an existing thread, it might be viewed as trying to contradict Jim's statement that (paraphrasing) all version 10d MarineAquarium3.scr files are the same. I have no information that the two MarineAquarium3.scr files have any functional difference (except for file size) - perhaps the difference is what compiler was used, or whatever. My experience says that there must be some difference in code, but perhaps that's totally immaterial - or perhaps identifying the difference may be important to somebody at some future time. So, instead of posting it to one of the existing threads (and perhaps making somebody think that I was contradicting Jim), I initially posted it to a new thread. That thread was closed by the moderator, with the comment "There is no need for this separate thread." Given a closed thread identified as "no need", I believed that the thread would be deleted in the future - so I picked another related thread to post the information. Bottom line: if the information is accurate, I believe it should be preserved for future reference. If it's not currently useful or interesting, it shouldn't take a response as long as this one, to justify it's existence.

01-22-2010, 10:31 AM	#4
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	I would imagine that the fact that the file size has varied over the past seven months, is of no consequence whatsoever.

01-22-2010, 10:55 AM	#6
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by cjmaddy: I would imagine that the fact that the file size has varied over the past seven months, is of no consequence whatsoever. Well, the executable files are clearly *different.* The possible significance is in the fact that the file size is different for two "identical" *Beta10d* MarineAquarium3.scr files - since they both identify themselves as Version 10d. As you will recall, there were cases with MA2 where files with the same file name had behavior that was different in important ways. For example https://www.feldoncentral.com/forums...8075#post68075 ... the only way to easily tell which file was being used, was by the file size.

01-22-2010, 11:09 AM	#7
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	Dale, - why don't you read Jim's reply ?

01-22-2010, 12:07 PM	#8
harris Registered Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Missouri Posts: 122	Does anyone else also see another thead locked shortly.

01-22-2010, 12:29 PM	#10
Dale Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 960	Originally posted by cjmaddy: Dale, - why don't you read Jim's reply ? Thanks. I was writing my reply (slowly) at the same time that Jim posted his reply. This forum software doesn't seem to have a feature that notifies people that "another reply has been posted while you were writing..." - so I didn't know about Jim's reply until mine was posted. I don't see anything in my postings that contradicts Jim's - nor anything in his that contradicts mine. I posted accurate information. Jim posted possible explanations. I was quite willing to initially just post my information for future reference if needed, and leave it at that. I do totally agree with Jim's comment: "there's no reason for everyone to be clogging up...." Today's clogging seems to be mostly in response to your questions.

01-22-2010, 01:33 PM	#11
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	Originally posted by harris: Does anyone else also see another thead locked shortly. ..... The sooner the better! ...

01-22-2010, 04:52 PM	#12
JohnWho Registered Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Tampa Bay Area, Florida Posts: 486	Originally posted by Dale: Given a closed thread identified as "no need", I believed that the thread would be deleted in the future - so I picked another related thread to post the information. Let me be clear - I started this thread because the other one was "closed" with the comment there was no need (and maybe an implication that the information had been discussed and resolved before), but there was no link in the closed forum to the earlier data. That is really what I was looking for - if a thread is closed because it has been discussed and resolved, I believe, as a courtesy, the thread closer should provide a link to the other thread. I thought the question about the different files sizes is a reasonable question, and wondered about it myself when I saw the post.

01-22-2010, 05:06 PM	#13
JohnWho Registered Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Tampa Bay Area, Florida Posts: 486	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: Exactly right, Cliff. They are all v10d. When one is ready which is not 10d, announcements will be made. Otherwise, there's no reason for everyone to be clogging up the server, downloading the exact same file they already have. Even on the rare occasion when something might be changed, it wouild be so insiginifcant that if we were to even announce it, you guys would ask, "Why are you bothering us with this stuff?". For example, Edgar might change some obscure piece of code that is not even currently used, but will make it easier to add other things in the future. Or maybe he simply added or subtracted some illegal Key Codes from the Kill List. Jim - I understand the process of coding software somewhat, which is partly why I am puzzled: "... Edgar might change some obscure piece of code that is not even currently used, but will make it easier to add other things in the future. Or maybe he simply added or subtracted some illegal Key Codes from the Kill List." - isn't that exactly why there are different "build" numbers, or versions, etc.? If, for example, "adding or subtracting some illegal Key Codes from the Kill List" is an important thing to do, don't you want to know which copies of your "beta10d" are floating around with the correct list and which have the old list? Wouldn't something like a "build" number (or maybe a compiled file size?) help with that? Same with a "...change (to) some obscure piece of code that is not even currently used, but will make it easier to add other things in the future." Wouldn't it help to know that the change from build 1234 to build 1235 was that alteration? I believe it would be helpful to keep track of these things in some logical way. This way, if someone downloads the "beta10d" and has a problem, you would know that the problem they are having might have been caused, or prevented, by a newer build number. But, hey, I'm just enjoying the product. As long as your system is working for you, I'm fine out here in "user land". Curious, but fine. John

01-22-2010, 05:34 PM	#14
harris Registered Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Missouri Posts: 122	JohnWho; I understand what you are saying and trying to do. It is admirable, but when the designer/owner of the software has said what he said about the subject, any continued discussion would seem futile. It reminds me of the old saying: to continue would be like trying to flog (beat) a dead horse to make it pull a load". Maybe some of the suggestions that you and Dale have made to Jim without receiving an answer to your satisfaction should be kept in a journal. When he has fixed the collision avoidance problem bring the issues up again and I'm sure he would be much more agreeable to fix them. Just my 2-cents.

01-22-2010, 06:08 PM	#15
JohnWho Registered Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Tampa Bay Area, Florida Posts: 486	I understand, harris. I just wanted to make sure that it was understood that I wasn't attempting to be argumentative, just helpful. I'm hoping my intentions aren't misunderstood.

01-22-2010, 09:37 PM	#17
JohnWho Registered Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Tampa Bay Area, Florida Posts: 486	This is really odd - in this forum: MA3 - READ THiISFIRST we are invited to participate and "be part of the construction process". Yet, we are insulted when we are?

01-22-2010, 11:25 PM	#19
Nicki Sugar Plum Fairy Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Toronto Posts: 1,267	JohnWho and Dale. We really appreciate your attention to detail and desire to help in the development of the aquarium. Really we do. Your comments have been noted and logged. Definitely not ignored. Everyone here is really nice and polite and no insult to anyone was intended I'm sure. This issue has been accepted for future refence. I'm sure we can all just let it be until perhaps in the future the topic needs to be revisited. And on that note, in one of the threads in which this was previously discussed I was dismissive of what other people find important, and for that I apologise. Run you clever boy. And remember...

01-23-2010, 04:43 AM	#20
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	If it was up to me, I would be quoting Cromwell. My final comment on this subject.... JohnWho and Dale: This sort of behaviour can only be interpreted as disruptive to the smooth running of this forum, which for the major portion of the nine years I have been here, we have all been privileged to enjoy This endless returning to the same, unnecessary, closed, and pointless topics, is argumentative and insulting to all, but in particular to Jim himself, who has had to waste so much effort explaining for the Nth time, that these changes of build numbers and/or filesizes are of no consequence. .... I suggest you accept that and allow us all to move on.