I like it better than Marine Aquarium!!

Falz · 07-05-2003, 07:44 PM

For the main reason, it's more realistic! Better suspension of disbelief.

The tail animations are so realistic, as well as the movement and interraction. But the biggest thing that makes it true to life is something quite coincidental, it's because these are goldfish, not big tropial fish, so they look about the right size on your monitor! Not like with the Marine aquarium, where you know these fish are giant but they are tiny on your screen - it's harder to believe it (always wanted a zoom feature in Marine Aquarium, to make the fish life-size).

THIS is why this one works better! Btw, did Sachs do the art for this? Because he's not mentioned anywhere... I don't really understand the relation between Prolific/Serenescreen/Jim himself.

grape_jellyfish · 07-05-2003, 07:52 PM

So, just what department of Prolific do you work in?

just kidding, they did do a good job but my favorite is still the Sachs line of ss.

feldon34 · 07-05-2003, 08:05 PM

Jim Sachs *is* SereneScreen. Prolific is the publisher for SereneScreen Marine Aquarium. Prolific is also artists, programmers, developers who have many other products on the market (prolific.com is just a taste).

Jim Sachs is not involved in the Goldfish Aquarium.
Goldfish Aquarium is by a totally different artist and programmers.

FlagPride is by yet another artist and programmer.

You're the first to prefer the Goldfish Aquarium (and express your preference so eloquently) here on the forum.

Even after quite a bit of exposure to Marine Aquarium (I've been into it for 2 years), it still looks real to me. Yes, the fish could swim more realistically, but everything that is done is done to prevent unrealistic things from happening like fish slamming into each other, passing through rocks, etc. Most developers seem to get ambitious about animation and then spent months trying to fix the realism. Jim went the other way, keeping it real but slowly expanding the animation. It is simply a different mindset.

I hate to be on the defensive, but I guess now is a good time to list things that I'd like to see improved with the Goldfish Aquarium.

First, the fish have no reflections on their scales. This is unrealistic. There is also no specular coloring. Real goldfish, when turning, catch glints of light from ambient lights in the room in addition to having a certain irridescent color and metallic appearance.

Look at the Royal Gramma and Copper-banded Butterfly in Jim's Aquarium. The Copper-banded Butterfly has a shiny metallic appearance while the Goldfish all have flat coloring. Supposedly, specular maps are coming (more complex than Jim's specular lighting).

The tail animation of the Goldfish is ok but there's more to be done. They still flop around a bit betraying a lack of true bone structure. It seems like the "tail is wagging the dog" at times.

The Goldfish lose a ton of realism for me with the fish slamming into the glass, rocks, or each other. You'd think that there would be a proximity bubble around each one which would cause decelleration of the fish.

The plants are still fuzzy due to photography problems. The lightplay on the rocks is inaccurate enough to bother me.

If you are unhappy with the size/scale of Marine Aquarium, then go and pick up a 42" Plasma screen. Then the fish will be the right size.

I'd hate to see what size monitor you'd need for Doom III or Half-Life 2.

grape_jellyfish · 07-05-2003, 08:08 PM

Um yeah, what he said.

Tornado Tom · 07-05-2003, 09:41 PM

they are all great to me.

anhduh · 07-05-2003, 11:56 PM

I am with you, Falz , Goldfish better !!!!

Falz · 07-06-2003, 06:04 AM

I believe the Goldfish artist/animator(s) are a little more talented than Jim... perhaps if I could see the MA fish full size, and having a more realistic behaviour, they would look better as they are... it's a context thing as well as a purely aesthetic thing.

Having said that, the Goldfish aquarium is also considerably more taxing on the CPU/Videocard (or perhaps just one, there's a bottleneck somewhere). But then again, MA doesn't have fin animations like the GA.

AKcrab · 07-06-2003, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by Falz
I believe the Goldfish artist/animator(s) are a little more talented than Jim...

Go away. Now you're just being rude.

feldon34 · 07-06-2003, 08:12 PM

>>Personal attacks towards the developers of the Goldfish Aquarium and another forum member deleted.<<

EddieWan · 07-07-2003, 05:52 AM

I like em both. Both have their good points and bad points. I currently run the Goldfish more than the Marine Aquarium only because it's newer and I've been running the MA for a couple years now. But like I said: I like em both

(talk about not taking sides...

)

patscarr · 07-07-2003, 08:23 AM

Originally posted by Falz
I believe the Goldfish artist/animator(s) are a little more talented than Jim...

To each his own, dude. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Jim would be one of the first people to tell you that.

Falz · 07-07-2003, 04:38 PM

A "personal attack"? What the hell?

So if I DON'T think someone is the absolute BEST in their field, or say that one piece of work by one artist is better than another piece by another artist, it qualifies as a "personal attack"?

Get a freaking grip!

feldon34 · 07-07-2003, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by Falz
A "personal attack"? What the hell?

So if I DON'T think someone is the absolute BEST in their field, or say that one piece of work by one artist is better than another piece by another artist, it qualifies as a "personal attack"?

There were two personal attacks in this thread which I deleted. They were well beyond criticism and were insulting to the developer. There are many ways to express your opinion and list flaws in a product without resorting to that kind of negativity.

Originally posted by Falz
Get a freaking grip!

Your post was not deleted, someone else's was. If they have a problem with how the forum is run, they are encouraged to contact Jim Sachs and express their side of the story.

Jim Sachs · 07-08-2003, 01:17 AM

Falz -

The size of the fish in the Marine Aquarium is roughly the same as the Goldfish. All of the Marine fish are juveniles, between 2 and 4 inches long.

As to the Goldfish animator being a little more talented than me, that is ridiculous. I have known this guy for about 15 years, and I can say that he is a LOT more talented than me.

Falz · 07-08-2003, 02:25 AM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs
Falz -

The size of the fish in the Marine Aquarium is roughly the same as the Goldfish. All of the Marine fish are juveniles, between 2 and 4 inches long.

I didn't know they were meant to be babies. How long until they mature? ;-)

cjmaddy · 07-08-2003, 05:16 AM

anhduh and Falz,

Methinks you do protest too much! - Try a little subtlety. - There are many ways to get your point across, keep the attention of other posters, yet still be polite!
A better use of language always helps. - Whenever a post sinks deep into net speak and abuse, it invariably indicates a lack of vocabulary, logic, or common decency.

anhduh, - I see you have met this problem before, - on the 'GoldFish Aquarium Hack!' thread, and suffered the same fate there. ...... We should all try to learn from our mistakes!

I made the mistake of NOT saying who had offered to pass hacked versions of the aquarium to me thru the PM system on that thread. It MAY have been assumed to be you. - But it wasn't! ....... The person concerned knows who it was! - If it happens again, I shall report the name as well as the offence!

This forum is too good to let the occasional blip throw us off course, all we need is to use common sense, then we won't be out of order!

feldon34 · 07-08-2003, 07:16 AM

>>Yet ANOTHER personal insult removed. Some people don't learn.<<

The Forum Rules, as relaxed as I feel they are, are not there on for decoration.

Falz · 07-08-2003, 03:34 PM

I still don't see where I abused anyone, cjmdaddy, or where I was rude.

Wizwad · 07-08-2003, 04:43 PM

Ahem,
< sticks head up from behind barricade >
and getting back to aquarium comparisons, I'll have to confess that I'm mostly running GA build 1618 these days. The fish may have a ways to go in terms of shiny scales, pectoral fins that do more than just doggy paddle and need more polygons; the plants may have a ways to go with regard to their colouring, alpha blending and flickering; the rocks may have a ways to go regarding the blue haze surrounding them. And this is not even a complete list of the areas where I feel improvement is needed.
Never-the-less, I find the swaying of the plants attractive, the fish quite realistic if I squint

and the fact that it's a comletely 3D environment absolutely and most magnificently fabulous!!!!! (Hope I didn't go overboard on that last bit!

) And that's where it beats the Marine Aquarium. While I think Jim's fish are better, until he introduces the 3D background and the individual fish behaviour the GA takes the prize. (Usual caveats apply - i.e. IMHO) Once MA has these features I'm sure it'll sweep the floor with all the others excepting maybe the by then released FA. But until FA appears I'll just have to make do with GA, for it, somewhere along the line while I wasn't looking, has taken my heart.

< ducks back behind the barricade >

cjmaddy · 07-08-2003, 05:09 PM

Falz,

"Get a freaking grip!" in the context in which you used it, and "I believe the Goldfish artist/animator(s) are a little more talented than Jim...", - again in your context, - can not be considered as using common sense, in my book.

That second statement, in isolation, could indeed be factual. But you are applying it to someone who has gone to incredible lengths, - and then some! - to produce something that is as near to perfection as current technology will allow.

Those of us who have been here for the last year or two, have witnessed the time and dedication that has been put into this product, and we have all had the opportunity to compare the competition. NO ONE has even come close. Show us ANYTHING that is better, or even as good.

So your remarks will come across as deeply offensive to many here, and are therefore considered abusive and rude.

07-05-2003, 07:44 PM	#1
Falz Registered Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 118	I like it better than Marine Aquarium!! For the main reason, it's more realistic! Better suspension of disbelief. The tail animations are so realistic, as well as the movement and interraction. But the biggest thing that makes it true to life is something quite coincidental, it's because these are goldfish, not big tropial fish, so they look about the right size on your monitor! Not like with the Marine aquarium, where you know these fish are giant but they are tiny on your screen - it's harder to believe it (always wanted a zoom feature in Marine Aquarium, to make the fish life-size). THIS is why this one works better! Btw, did Sachs do the art for this? Because he's not mentioned anywhere... I don't really understand the relation between Prolific/Serenescreen/Jim himself.

07-05-2003, 07:52 PM	#2
grape_jellyfish Registered Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,235	So, just what department of Prolific do you work in? just kidding, they did do a good job but my favorite is still the Sachs line of ss. Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass....It's learning to Dance in the Rain.

07-05-2003, 08:05 PM	#3
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	Jim Sachs is SereneScreen. Prolific is the publisher for SereneScreen Marine Aquarium. Prolific is also artists, programmers, developers who have many other products on the market (prolific.com is just a taste). Jim Sachs is not involved in the Goldfish Aquarium. Goldfish Aquarium is by a totally different artist and programmers. FlagPride is by yet another artist and programmer. You're the first to prefer the Goldfish Aquarium (and express your preference so eloquently) here on the forum. Even after quite a bit of exposure to Marine Aquarium (I've been into it for 2 years), it still looks real to me. Yes, the fish could swim more realistically, but everything that is done is done to prevent unrealistic things from happening like fish slamming into each other, passing through rocks, etc. Most developers seem to get ambitious about animation and then spent months trying to fix the realism. Jim went the other way, keeping it real but slowly expanding the animation. It is simply a different mindset. I hate to be on the defensive, but I guess now is a good time to list things that I'd like to see improved with the Goldfish Aquarium. First, the fish have no reflections on their scales. This is unrealistic. There is also no specular coloring. Real goldfish, when turning, catch glints of light from ambient lights in the room in addition to having a certain irridescent color and metallic appearance. Look at the Royal Gramma and Copper-banded Butterfly in Jim's Aquarium. The Copper-banded Butterfly has a shiny metallic appearance while the Goldfish all have flat coloring. Supposedly, specular maps are coming (more complex than Jim's specular lighting). The tail animation of the Goldfish is ok but there's more to be done. They still flop around a bit betraying a lack of true bone structure. It seems like the "tail is wagging the dog" at times. The Goldfish lose a ton of realism for me with the fish slamming into the glass, rocks, or each other. You'd think that there would be a proximity bubble around each one which would cause decelleration of the fish. The plants are still fuzzy due to photography problems. The lightplay on the rocks is inaccurate enough to bother me. If you are unhappy with the size/scale of Marine Aquarium, then go and pick up a 42" Plasma screen. Then the fish will be the right size. I'd hate to see what size monitor you'd need for Doom III or Half-Life 2. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman Last edited by feldon34; 07-09-2003 at 10:28 PM.

07-05-2003, 08:08 PM	#4
grape_jellyfish Registered Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,235	Um yeah, what he said. Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass....It's learning to Dance in the Rain.

07-05-2003, 09:41 PM	#5
Tornado Tom Tommy Turtle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Edmonton, AB, CA Posts: 78	they are all great to me. 14 Little Fish Needs A New Larger Aquarium!

07-05-2003, 11:56 PM	#6
anhduh Registered Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 5	I am with you, Falz , Goldfish better !!!!

07-06-2003, 06:04 AM	#7
Falz Registered Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 118	I believe the Goldfish artist/animator(s) are a little more talented than Jim... perhaps if I could see the MA fish full size, and having a more realistic behaviour, they would look better as they are... it's a context thing as well as a purely aesthetic thing. Having said that, the Goldfish aquarium is also considerably more taxing on the CPU/Videocard (or perhaps just one, there's a bottleneck somewhere). But then again, MA doesn't have fin animations like the GA.

07-06-2003, 01:42 PM	#8
AKcrab Registered Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 233	Originally posted by Falz I believe the Goldfish artist/animator(s) are a little more talented than Jim... Go away. Now you're just being rude.

07-06-2003, 08:12 PM	#9
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	>>Personal attacks towards the developers of the Goldfish Aquarium and another forum member deleted.<< "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

07-07-2003, 05:52 AM	#10
EddieWan JediMaster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Tallahasse, Florida Posts: 183	I like em both. Both have their good points and bad points. I currently run the Goldfish more than the Marine Aquarium only because it's newer and I've been running the MA for a couple years now. But like I said: I like em both (talk about not taking sides... ) If it ain't broke, fix it till it is!

07-07-2003, 08:23 AM	#11
patscarr Pet Shark Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Back in Buffalo Posts: 5,455	Originally posted by Falz I believe the Goldfish artist/animator(s) are a little more talented than Jim... To each his own, dude. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Jim would be one of the first people to tell you that. Patrick

07-07-2003, 04:38 PM	#12
Falz Registered Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 118	A "personal attack"? What the hell? So if I DON'T think someone is the absolute BEST in their field, or say that one piece of work by one artist is better than another piece by another artist, it qualifies as a "personal attack"? Get a freaking grip!

07-07-2003, 06:17 PM	#13
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	Originally posted by Falz A "personal attack"? What the hell? So if I DON'T think someone is the absolute BEST in their field, or say that one piece of work by one artist is better than another piece by another artist, it qualifies as a "personal attack"? There were two personal attacks in this thread which I deleted. They were well beyond criticism and were insulting to the developer. There are many ways to express your opinion and list flaws in a product without resorting to that kind of negativity. Originally posted by Falz Get a freaking grip! Your post was not deleted, someone else's was. If they have a problem with how the forum is run, they are encouraged to contact Jim Sachs and express their side of the story. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

07-08-2003, 01:17 AM	#14
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	Falz - The size of the fish in the Marine Aquarium is roughly the same as the Goldfish. All of the Marine fish are juveniles, between 2 and 4 inches long. As to the Goldfish animator being a little more talented than me, that is ridiculous. I have known this guy for about 15 years, and I can say that he is a LOT more talented than me. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

07-08-2003, 02:25 AM	#15
Falz Registered Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 118	Originally posted by Jim Sachs Falz - The size of the fish in the Marine Aquarium is roughly the same as the Goldfish. All of the Marine fish are juveniles, between 2 and 4 inches long. I didn't know they were meant to be babies. How long until they mature? ;-)

07-08-2003, 05:16 AM	#16
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	anhduh and Falz, Methinks you do protest too much! - Try a little subtlety. - There are many ways to get your point across, keep the attention of other posters, yet still be polite! A better use of language always helps. - Whenever a post sinks deep into net speak and abuse, it invariably indicates a lack of vocabulary, logic, or common decency. anhduh, - I see you have met this problem before, - on the 'GoldFish Aquarium Hack!' thread, and suffered the same fate there. ...... We should all try to learn from our mistakes! I made the mistake of NOT saying who had offered to pass hacked versions of the aquarium to me thru the PM system on that thread. It MAY have been assumed to be you. - But it wasn't! ....... The person concerned knows who it was! - If it happens again, I shall report the name as well as the offence! This forum is too good to let the occasional blip throw us off course, all we need is to use common sense, then we won't be out of order!

07-08-2003, 07:16 AM	#17
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	>>Yet ANOTHER personal insult removed. Some people don't learn.<< The Forum Rules, as relaxed as I feel they are, are not there on for decoration. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

07-08-2003, 03:34 PM	#18
Falz Registered Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 118	I still don't see where I abused anyone, cjmdaddy, or where I was rude.

07-08-2003, 04:43 PM	#19
Wizwad Only me... Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 2,584	Ahem, < sticks head up from behind barricade > and getting back to aquarium comparisons, I'll have to confess that I'm mostly running GA build 1618 these days. The fish may have a ways to go in terms of shiny scales, pectoral fins that do more than just doggy paddle and need more polygons; the plants may have a ways to go with regard to their colouring, alpha blending and flickering; the rocks may have a ways to go regarding the blue haze surrounding them. And this is not even a complete list of the areas where I feel improvement is needed. Never-the-less, I find the swaying of the plants attractive, the fish quite realistic if I squint and the fact that it's a comletely 3D environment absolutely and most magnificently fabulous!!!!! (Hope I didn't go overboard on that last bit! ) And that's where it beats the Marine Aquarium. While I think Jim's fish are better, until he introduces the 3D background and the individual fish behaviour the GA takes the prize. (Usual caveats apply - i.e. IMHO) Once MA has these features I'm sure it'll sweep the floor with all the others excepting maybe the by then released FA. But until FA appears I'll just have to make do with GA, for it, somewhere along the line while I wasn't looking, has taken my heart. < ducks back behind the barricade > Mark ----------- Intel i7 12700K \| Aorus Z690 Pro \| Corsair DDR5 5600 32GB \| Asus Dual RTX3060ti 6GB v2 Mini OC \| Corsair RM850 Gold PSU \| 1TB NVMe M.2 WD Black SN850 \| 4TB Seagate BarraCuda HDD \| Corsair Airflow 5000D Case \| HP 32QHD 4K Monitor \| Windows 11 x64 Professional

07-08-2003, 05:09 PM	#20
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	Falz, "Get a freaking grip!" in the context in which you used it, and "I believe the Goldfish artist/animator(s) are a little more talented than Jim...", - again in your context, - can not be considered as using common sense, in my book. That second statement, in isolation, could indeed be factual. But you are applying it to someone who has gone to incredible lengths, - and then some! - to produce something that is as near to perfection as current technology will allow. Those of us who have been here for the last year or two, have witnessed the time and dedication that has been put into this product, and we have all had the opportunity to compare the competition. NO ONE has even come close. Show us ANYTHING that is better, or even as good. So your remarks will come across as deeply offensive to many here, and are therefore considered abusive and rude.