Juvenile Queen angel may actually be a Blue - Page 2

Tiny Turtle · 09-28-2006, 02:48 AM

And neither Minnie nor Pat note they're using past tense...

Since courduroy is actually referred to as "manchester" in Sweden there's a distinct candidate whom I think of firstly about that...

"Everything has changed, absolutely nothing's changed
Take my hand, not my picture, spilled my tincture"

Yellow Tang · 09-28-2006, 04:10 AM

Originally posted by cjmaddy:

It's the original one I prefer ...

Original you said? Look at this picture (https://www.feldoncentral.com/forums...read.php?t=745), this is the original Queen Angel!

Tiny Turtle · 09-28-2006, 04:19 AM

Haha, Cliff - owned!

cjmaddy · 09-28-2006, 08:21 AM

Nice one, YT.

- Yes, I was waiting for someone to point out that there had been an even earlier one. I seemed to remember that we had been through all this once or twice before! - Of course, we'll have to go back to before the Ark to find the original one I suppose? ..... Did they have fish in the Ark???

ps, There! - I'm not the only one, Morgan.

pps, Tiny, you'll have to explain the use of 'owned', in that context. - It's got me mystified.

Jav400 · 09-28-2006, 08:51 AM

Cliff,

Basically I think Tiny is using it in this context to mean that someone has gotten something over on someone totally. Therefore they "own" the situation, and you are left in the dust.

cjmaddy · 09-28-2006, 09:31 AM

I got the gist of it of course, I'm just curious where it comes from! ... It ain't standard English!

.......................... Ah!!!! .... Wikipedia to the rescue!

.............. - (We live and learn!)

rschuh · 09-28-2006, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by Jav400:

Glad you are enjoying it so much and welcome to our forum.

Do a google search for juvenile queen angel and then look at the results on the images page.

I am not sure what you are talking about. I grew up in Ft. Lauderdale, FL and used to dive and collect fish all the time as a kid. Here are the photos and you can decide for yourself. Here is a photo of a Juvenile Blue: http://tinyurl.com/f6n8r

Here is a Juvenile Queen: http://tinyurl.com/z2hkm

The Blue has less streamers on the back of the top and bottom fins and the bars on the Blue are more straight. The top and bottom fins of the Queen are longer and the bars are more curved. Look at these photos and then look at the fish on the screen saver. In person, it is really easy to tell as the colors of the juvenile queen really jump out. I have been dealing with marine aquariums, fish and corals for 35 years or so, I do know a bit. ;-) Another thing that can really screw up ID is that Blues and Queens will cross breed in the wild. It is called a Townsend's Angel. Both the blue and queen are gorgeous in their Juvenile form, but the Queen is FAR more striking when it is an adult. It is just like the French and Grey angels from the Atlantic too. They both are VERY similar in their juvenile form, but when they mature, the Greys actually turn a really plain looking black and grey fish and the French keeps a great deal of yellow in it. In the Pacific, the Emperor and Koran look very similar in their Juvenile form and are RADICALLY different looking when they mature. I would like everyone to look at the photos and the fish on the screen saver. As I stated, I am probably being far too critical, but I do think it is important just so he has the correct scientific name.

Thanks

Rob

rschuh · 09-28-2006, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by Jav400:

The two species are closely related, and fish are not carbon copy cutouts, so there can be some slight difference between the same species and there is definately a difference between age changes. But the bottom line is Jim created it from what he saw and he says it is, him I trust. So unless where ever he saw it, it was labeled wrong I would give 99.9% odds on it being right.
Which for me isn't a plus really, for reasons I won't get into now I never did like that fish and its the only one I wouldn't care if it was thrown out, or changed. Sorry Cliff, I know you like this one.

Michael,
Let me get this straight. If Jim stated that the Volitan Lion was in fact and Antenata Lionfish, you would agree with him? You are taking this as if I am attacking Jim. I LOVE the screen saver and think that the fish are amazing, but getting a juvenile blue and queen mixed up happens in fish stores all the time, so it could be an easy mistake to make. Look at the photos I posted and let me know what you think then.

Take care

Rob

rschuh · 09-28-2006, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs:

There has always been a lot of confusion even among the experts between the Queen and Blue. At the juvenile stage I chose to use (just losing its stripes and no crown showing yet), it could be either one. Several people in the past have thought it was a Blue, but no one has ever said, "It's a Blue because ______".

Hi Jim,
May I first say thank you for your incredible product. For somone like myself who has been involved with the marine industry for 35 years to love it really means something. I posted 2 photos in an earlier post, so check them out. The other way to check is that the queen has slightly longer tips on the end of it's top and bottom fins and the bars are more curved. The blue has slightly shorter fin tips and the bars are more straight. The wild card here is the Townsend's Angel, which is a natural hybrid of the 2 that we used to come across quite often. We used to see them on occasion in the reefs and used to get them in the various aquarium stores that I have worked in and with in the past. I used to sell a top quality protein skimmer to stores in S. FL from Boca Raton to Miami and was in and out of shops all the time. I was in a store once where they received 4 juvenile Townsend's at the same time. All of us were stumped initially, but we called one of the pros from Dover at U. of Miami and he shot probably 200 photos and a month later confirmed that all were Townsend's. He said it was the first time that anyone had seen that many all together at once. No matter which one they are, both the queen and blue angel juveniles are gorgeous fish. I had a show size adult queen in a 300 gallon tank back in the 80s and it was just breath taking. I had set that tank up as an angel only tank and was able to keep 9 species of angel with no fighting by introducing each new fish with each new one being larger than the previous fish in the tank. My prize of the tank was a mid juvenile Clarion Angel. They are now next to impossible to get and can sell for as high as $10,000.00, but back in the 80s, we had access to Clarions all the time and he only cost me $400.00 back then. That was a VERY pricey fish back in 1988! :-) Keep up the good work.

Thanks

Rob

Jim Sachs · 09-28-2006, 07:33 PM

Thanks for the feedback. I'm not married to the claim that the current image is a Queen, but the photograph was taken of a fish that was clearly marked as "Queen Angel". Whether someone up the line got it wrong, I can't say. Both of the pics in your links are of older fish whose fins have started to show the definition characteristic of their types, so it's hard to say. In all the books I have, no two Queen Angels look alike. In the early stages, they seem to change almost daily.

As I mentioned, all the fish will be replaced in 3.0, so I'll be on the lookout for an example that more clearly defines the species.

Jav400 · 09-28-2006, 08:50 PM

Rob,

No attack and no disrespect intended. Don't take my post the wrong way. I was merely trying to reiterate, that differences between fish of the same species, and differences between the age changes of the same species can be dramatic. Seems like we agree on this. I don't agree that any one photo can represent a species, especially during the transfer between juvenile and adult. Hence my suggestion for a search of multiple photos and your own judgement. I myself ran a salt tank for quite a number of years back in the 70's & 80's, and in addition helped a very good friend of mine with the largest salt aquarium store in town on occassion. I'm not a novice to the salt fish trade. But I will admit my experience is probably somewhat dated now.

Hopefully within a year or so I plan on setting up another 180 here. Hope you are still around then, I might have a question or two.

But having seen Jim's work and learned his character over the last 6 1/2 years, I trust what he says. If he says thats what he used, then thats what he used, he has no reason to say anything otherwise. Its his creation after all. This does not preclude someone in the store from having made a mistake. I never said Jim was a marine biologist, just an honest man.

Your thoughts are always welcome, thats what this forum is for, but like Jim says; they all have to be redone for 3.0. This is mearly something else added into the mix and an extra point to watch for in the future release.

Tiny Turtle · 09-29-2006, 01:43 AM

Lol, more ownage...

Thanks Rob, and looking forward to hearing more from you on the forum.

/Tiny H4xr

Jav400 · 09-29-2006, 06:05 AM

lol, Tiny is hung up on that phrase lately. Personally I say its a queen still, but thats jmo.

feldon34 · 09-29-2006, 08:18 AM

There seems to be a lot of Drama surrounding this Queen. Hey, that's what we'll call it. We'll just rename the fish a Drama Queen. Sound ok?

Tiny Turtle · 09-29-2006, 10:56 AM

Lol

rschuh · 09-30-2006, 03:13 AM

Originally posted by Jav400:

Rob,

No attack and no disrespect intended. Don't take my post the wrong way. I was merely trying to reiterate, that differences between fish of the same species, and differences between the age changes of the same species can be dramatic. Seems like we agree on this. I don't agree that any one photo can represent a species, especially during the transfer between juvenile and adult. Hence my suggestion for a search of multiple photos and your own judgement. I myself ran a salt tank for quite a number of years back in the 70's & 80's, and in addition helped a very good friend of mine with the largest salt aquarium store in town on occassion. I'm not a novice to the salt fish trade. But I will admit my experience is probably somewhat dated now.

Hopefully within a year or so I plan on setting up another 180 here. Hope you are still around then, I might have a question or two.

But having seen Jim's work and learned his character over the last 6 1/2 years, I trust what he says. If he says thats what he used, then thats what he used, he has no reason to say anything otherwise. Its his creation after all. This does not preclude someone in the store from having made a mistake. I never said Jim was a marine biologist, just an honest man.

Your thoughts are always welcome, thats what this forum is for, but like Jim says; they all have to be redone for 3.0. This is mearly something else added into the mix and an extra point to watch for in the future release.

Michael,
If you do decide to set up a tank and go with a reef tank, I would spend at least 3 months reading and talking to as many people as possible. There are so many different ways of doing reef tanks now that it really is almost impossible to keep up. The intial reef tanks used wet/dry filters, but they found that they produced far too much nitrate. The next big thing was the Berlin system. It is still used by a large # of reef keepers. That is the system where you use only live rock as a biological filter and then use a much larger than normal protein skimmer on the tank. The original Berlin tanks had no sand on the bottom, but then people went to using a sand bed with live sand. The Jaubert method was the one where a separate tank is used as a plenum which is filled with a large amount of live sand. They also use marine plants to filter the water. Some people still used their skimmers and some did not. What many guys are doing now is setting up 2 outside sumps with one filled with live sand and the other with a large amount of marine plants like calerpa. You don't want much, if any plants in the tank as reefs do best in nutrient poor water and you also run the risk of many of the plants spawning and killing most of the tank. The way to keep the plants in the sump from ever spawning is to keep them under heavy metal halide lights 24/7. This keeps them from spawning and of course the plants work by removing the organics from the tank. Any way you go, it is going to cost a good amount of $. Even if you only had the proper lighting on the tank only, you need a chiller on the tank. The last reef tank I had going was a 70s gallon corner tank. I had a 6 foot tall skimmer rated for a 500 gallon tank, Metal halide and actinic lighting, a chiller, pumps etc. That 70 gal tank alone cost me $70.00/month in utilities! :-) I have a friend who has an AMAZING 300 gal reef tank and that tank costs him $500.00/month in utilities!! He even has a set up for a back up generator to kick on with a power failure. Check out articles by Charles Delbeck, Julian Sprung and the top European reef specialist Alf Nilson. Delbeck runs the Honolulu Aquarium and they have AMAZING displays, but then again, they just run natural sea water in and out all day and use natural sunlight, so with a set up like that, it is quite easy to have amazing exibits. I actually think Nilson's aquarium is more impressive as it is all inside and done with filtration. He has a HUGE coral propogation program at the Oslo Aquarium. I had a 300 gal fish tank back in the late 1980s and even a fish only tank of that size is just striking, especially when you can get some gorgeous fish. My favorite mix of color in my tank was the large amount of bright orange I had in the tank. I had a flame angel, an Adult Garibaldi and a mid level Clarion angel in the tank. I also have a gorgeous Asfur, Queen, Christmas Islands Emporer, a Majestic and a Conspiculous. As you can tell, I had money back then. I could NEVER afford a tank like tht today, especially when Clarions now sell for as much as $10,000.00!! Good luck whichever way you go!

Rob

Jav400 · 09-30-2006, 06:16 AM

No worries about the reef tank, what I set up will be a fish tank. A tank full of rock doesn't interest me, JMO. The Zebra Moray on the special creatures page was mine. Its a personal photo I took years ago of the one I had. Somewhere around here I have a photo of the teira I had as well. Him I kept for over 11 years or so, and it died while I was wandering around Europe and someone else was trying to maintain my tank. Both of those I could feed by hand and they are both again definates that I will get for the new tank. If I had my druthers I would like to try my hand with a pinnatus, but I doubt very seriously of ever finding one, and the track record of those isn't good.

Other than those 2 definates, I'm not sure what I want. A majestic would be nice, I don't care much for queens. I wouldn't argue about a blue face, or maybe a small ray if I could find one I like. Flames I had before and don't want another one, an Asfur is still open. The jury is still out on the total contents, but I have pretty much made up my mind on at least a 150, ( I like the 28" ) or a 180.

rschuh · 10-02-2006, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by Jav400:

No worries about the reef tank, what I set up will be a fish tank. A tank full of rock doesn't interest me, JMO. The Zebra Moray on the special creatures page was mine. Its a personal photo I took years ago of the one I had. Somewhere around here I have a photo of the teira I had as well. Him I kept for over 11 years or so, and it died while I was wandering around Europe and someone else was trying to maintain my tank. Both of those I could feed by hand and they are both again definates that I will get for the new tank. If I had my druthers I would like to try my hand with a pinnatus, but I doubt very seriously of ever finding one, and the track record of those isn't good.

Other than those 2 definates, I'm not sure what I want. A majestic would be nice, I don't care much for queens. I wouldn't argue about a blue face, or maybe a small ray if I could find one I like. Flames I had before and don't want another one, an Asfur is still open. The jury is still out on the total contents, but I have pretty much made up my mind on at least a 150, ( I like the 28" ) or a 180.

Michael,
I had a 150 set up with Brackish water, a reverse flow undergravel and a protein skimmer and kept 3 Pinatus and 2 Tierra bats alive for over 3 years. I did keep some live rock in the tank also for them to pick on, but they are very tough to get eating intially. You can't have any other fish that will be even slightly aggressive with them either. An adult Pinatus is still one of my favorite fish of all times. The Orbics do well in just about any tank and while they don't have the color of finnage of a Tierra or Pinatus, they have a ton of personality. Most of the puffers tend to act like little puppies after a while too. :-)

Rob

Jav400 · 10-02-2006, 01:19 PM

Its been awhile and I will have to go back and do some studying and see if I am starting fights or feeding other fish with my choices, but right now my first choices would be for a Pinnatus, zebra eel, majestic, blue face, french, maybe something like a declivis or meyer's butterfly that you don't usually see, and/or a Mandarin if he doesn't end up as lunch. A few dwarf lions might be decent as well and/or some Moorish Idols. Only time will tell, as for something like a clarion you can have it. In my region I have to see enough orange as it is, I for sure won't have it in my tank.

Tiny Turtle · 10-02-2006, 02:37 PM

Rob,
Good reading - but may I suggest you insert blank lines between the paragraphs to make it easier to read.

/Tiny Readability

09-28-2006, 02:48 AM	#21
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	And neither Minnie nor Pat note they're using past tense... Since courduroy is actually referred to as "manchester" in Sweden there's a distinct candidate whom I think of firstly about that... "Everything has changed, absolutely nothing's changed Take my hand, not my picture, spilled my tincture" Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

09-28-2006, 04:19 AM	#23
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Haha, Cliff - owned! Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

09-28-2006, 08:51 AM	#25
Jav400 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 9,725	Cliff, Basically I think Tiny is using it in this context to mean that someone has gotten something over on someone totally. Therefore they "own" the situation, and you are left in the dust. Michael Administrator of Inside:SereneScreen Aquarium Forum, Chatroom, Fan Site & *Gallery* DVD Collection

09-28-2006, 07:33 PM	#30
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,771	Thanks for the feedback. I'm not married to the claim that the current image is a Queen, but the photograph was taken of a fish that was clearly marked as "Queen Angel". Whether someone up the line got it wrong, I can't say. Both of the pics in your links are of older fish whose fins have started to show the definition characteristic of their types, so it's hard to say. In all the books I have, no two Queen Angels look alike. In the early stages, they seem to change almost daily. As I mentioned, all the fish will be replaced in 3.0, so I'll be on the lookout for an example that more clearly defines the species. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

09-28-2006, 08:50 PM	#31
Jav400 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 9,725	Rob, No attack and no disrespect intended. Don't take my post the wrong way. I was merely trying to reiterate, that differences between fish of the same species, and differences between the age changes of the same species can be dramatic. Seems like we agree on this. I don't agree that any one photo can represent a species, especially during the transfer between juvenile and adult. Hence my suggestion for a search of multiple photos and your own judgement. I myself ran a salt tank for quite a number of years back in the 70's & 80's, and in addition helped a very good friend of mine with the largest salt aquarium store in town on occassion. I'm not a novice to the salt fish trade. But I will admit my experience is probably somewhat dated now. Hopefully within a year or so I plan on setting up another 180 here. Hope you are still around then, I might have a question or two. But having seen Jim's work and learned his character over the last 6 1/2 years, I trust what he says. If he says thats what he used, then thats what he used, he has no reason to say anything otherwise. Its his creation after all. This does not preclude someone in the store from having made a mistake. I never said Jim was a marine biologist, just an honest man. Your thoughts are always welcome, thats what this forum is for, but like Jim says; they all have to be redone for 3.0. This is mearly something else added into the mix and an extra point to watch for in the future release. Michael Administrator of Inside:SereneScreen Aquarium Forum, Chatroom, Fan Site & *Gallery* DVD Collection

09-28-2006, 04:10 AM	#22
Yellow Tang YT Join Date: Jan 2002 Tournaments Won: 1 Location: Germany Posts: 729	Originally posted by cjmaddy: It's the original one I prefer ... Original you said? Look at this picture (https://www.feldoncentral.com/forums...read.php?t=745), this is the original Queen Angel!

09-28-2006, 08:21 AM	#24
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	Nice one, YT. - Yes, I was waiting for someone to point out that there had been an even earlier one. I seemed to remember that we had been through all this once or twice before! - Of course, we'll have to go back to before the Ark to find the original one I suppose? ..... Did they have fish in the Ark??? ps, There! - I'm not the only one, Morgan. pps, Tiny, you'll have to explain the use of 'owned', in that context. - It's got me mystified.

09-28-2006, 09:31 AM	#26
cjmaddy Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 7,854	I got the gist of it of course, I'm just curious where it comes from! ... It ain't standard English! .......................... Ah!!!! .... Wikipedia to the rescue! .............. - (We live and learn!)

09-28-2006, 07:00 PM	#27
rschuh Registered Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9	Originally posted by Jav400: Glad you are enjoying it so much and welcome to our forum. Do a google search for juvenile queen angel and then look at the results on the images page. I am not sure what you are talking about. I grew up in Ft. Lauderdale, FL and used to dive and collect fish all the time as a kid. Here are the photos and you can decide for yourself. Here is a photo of a Juvenile Blue: http://tinyurl.com/f6n8r Here is a Juvenile Queen: http://tinyurl.com/z2hkm The Blue has less streamers on the back of the top and bottom fins and the bars on the Blue are more straight. The top and bottom fins of the Queen are longer and the bars are more curved. Look at these photos and then look at the fish on the screen saver. In person, it is really easy to tell as the colors of the juvenile queen really jump out. I have been dealing with marine aquariums, fish and corals for 35 years or so, I do know a bit. ;-) Another thing that can really screw up ID is that Blues and Queens will cross breed in the wild. It is called a Townsend's Angel. Both the blue and queen are gorgeous in their Juvenile form, but the Queen is FAR more striking when it is an adult. It is just like the French and Grey angels from the Atlantic too. They both are VERY similar in their juvenile form, but when they mature, the Greys actually turn a really plain looking black and grey fish and the French keeps a great deal of yellow in it. In the Pacific, the Emperor and Koran look very similar in their Juvenile form and are RADICALLY different looking when they mature. I would like everyone to look at the photos and the fish on the screen saver. As I stated, I am probably being far too critical, but I do think it is important just so he has the correct scientific name. Thanks Rob

09-28-2006, 07:04 PM	#28
rschuh Registered Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9	Originally posted by Jav400: The two species are closely related, and fish are not carbon copy cutouts, so there can be some slight difference between the same species and there is definately a difference between age changes. But the bottom line is Jim created it from what he saw and he says it is, him I trust. So unless where ever he saw it, it was labeled wrong I would give 99.9% odds on it being right. Which for me isn't a plus really, for reasons I won't get into now I never did like that fish and its the only one I wouldn't care if it was thrown out, or changed. Sorry Cliff, I know you like this one. Michael, Let me get this straight. If Jim stated that the Volitan Lion was in fact and Antenata Lionfish, you would agree with him? You are taking this as if I am attacking Jim. I LOVE the screen saver and think that the fish are amazing, but getting a juvenile blue and queen mixed up happens in fish stores all the time, so it could be an easy mistake to make. Look at the photos I posted and let me know what you think then. Take care Rob

09-28-2006, 07:16 PM	#29
rschuh Registered Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9	Originally posted by Jim Sachs: There has always been a lot of confusion even among the experts between the Queen and Blue. At the juvenile stage I chose to use (just losing its stripes and no crown showing yet), it could be either one. Several people in the past have thought it was a Blue, but no one has ever said, "It's a Blue because ______". Hi Jim, May I first say thank you for your incredible product. For somone like myself who has been involved with the marine industry for 35 years to love it really means something. I posted 2 photos in an earlier post, so check them out. The other way to check is that the queen has slightly longer tips on the end of it's top and bottom fins and the bars are more curved. The blue has slightly shorter fin tips and the bars are more straight. The wild card here is the Townsend's Angel, which is a natural hybrid of the 2 that we used to come across quite often. We used to see them on occasion in the reefs and used to get them in the various aquarium stores that I have worked in and with in the past. I used to sell a top quality protein skimmer to stores in S. FL from Boca Raton to Miami and was in and out of shops all the time. I was in a store once where they received 4 juvenile Townsend's at the same time. All of us were stumped initially, but we called one of the pros from Dover at U. of Miami and he shot probably 200 photos and a month later confirmed that all were Townsend's. He said it was the first time that anyone had seen that many all together at once. No matter which one they are, both the queen and blue angel juveniles are gorgeous fish. I had a show size adult queen in a 300 gallon tank back in the 80s and it was just breath taking. I had set that tank up as an angel only tank and was able to keep 9 species of angel with no fighting by introducing each new fish with each new one being larger than the previous fish in the tank. My prize of the tank was a mid juvenile Clarion Angel. They are now next to impossible to get and can sell for as high as $10,000.00, but back in the 80s, we had access to Clarions all the time and he only cost me $400.00 back then. That was a VERY pricey fish back in 1988! :-) Keep up the good work. Thanks Rob

09-29-2006, 01:43 AM	#32
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Lol, more ownage... Thanks Rob, and looking forward to hearing more from you on the forum. /Tiny H4xr Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

09-29-2006, 06:05 AM	#33
Jav400 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 9,725	lol, Tiny is hung up on that phrase lately. Personally I say its a queen still, but thats jmo. Michael Administrator of Inside:SereneScreen Aquarium Forum, Chatroom, Fan Site & *Gallery* DVD Collection

09-29-2006, 08:18 AM	#34
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,938	There seems to be a lot of Drama surrounding this Queen. Hey, that's what we'll call it. We'll just rename the fish a Drama Queen. Sound ok? "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

09-29-2006, 10:56 AM	#35
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Lol Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.

09-30-2006, 03:13 AM	#36
rschuh Registered Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9	Originally posted by Jav400: Rob, No attack and no disrespect intended. Don't take my post the wrong way. I was merely trying to reiterate, that differences between fish of the same species, and differences between the age changes of the same species can be dramatic. Seems like we agree on this. I don't agree that any one photo can represent a species, especially during the transfer between juvenile and adult. Hence my suggestion for a search of multiple photos and your own judgement. I myself ran a salt tank for quite a number of years back in the 70's & 80's, and in addition helped a very good friend of mine with the largest salt aquarium store in town on occassion. I'm not a novice to the salt fish trade. But I will admit my experience is probably somewhat dated now. Hopefully within a year or so I plan on setting up another 180 here. Hope you are still around then, I might have a question or two. But having seen Jim's work and learned his character over the last 6 1/2 years, I trust what he says. If he says thats what he used, then thats what he used, he has no reason to say anything otherwise. Its his creation after all. This does not preclude someone in the store from having made a mistake. I never said Jim was a marine biologist, just an honest man. Your thoughts are always welcome, thats what this forum is for, but like Jim says; they all have to be redone for 3.0. This is mearly something else added into the mix and an extra point to watch for in the future release. Michael, If you do decide to set up a tank and go with a reef tank, I would spend at least 3 months reading and talking to as many people as possible. There are so many different ways of doing reef tanks now that it really is almost impossible to keep up. The intial reef tanks used wet/dry filters, but they found that they produced far too much nitrate. The next big thing was the Berlin system. It is still used by a large # of reef keepers. That is the system where you use only live rock as a biological filter and then use a much larger than normal protein skimmer on the tank. The original Berlin tanks had no sand on the bottom, but then people went to using a sand bed with live sand. The Jaubert method was the one where a separate tank is used as a plenum which is filled with a large amount of live sand. They also use marine plants to filter the water. Some people still used their skimmers and some did not. What many guys are doing now is setting up 2 outside sumps with one filled with live sand and the other with a large amount of marine plants like calerpa. You don't want much, if any plants in the tank as reefs do best in nutrient poor water and you also run the risk of many of the plants spawning and killing most of the tank. The way to keep the plants in the sump from ever spawning is to keep them under heavy metal halide lights 24/7. This keeps them from spawning and of course the plants work by removing the organics from the tank. Any way you go, it is going to cost a good amount of $. Even if you only had the proper lighting on the tank only, you need a chiller on the tank. The last reef tank I had going was a 70s gallon corner tank. I had a 6 foot tall skimmer rated for a 500 gallon tank, Metal halide and actinic lighting, a chiller, pumps etc. That 70 gal tank alone cost me $70.00/month in utilities! :-) I have a friend who has an AMAZING 300 gal reef tank and that tank costs him $500.00/month in utilities!! He even has a set up for a back up generator to kick on with a power failure. Check out articles by Charles Delbeck, Julian Sprung and the top European reef specialist Alf Nilson. Delbeck runs the Honolulu Aquarium and they have AMAZING displays, but then again, they just run natural sea water in and out all day and use natural sunlight, so with a set up like that, it is quite easy to have amazing exibits. I actually think Nilson's aquarium is more impressive as it is all inside and done with filtration. He has a HUGE coral propogation program at the Oslo Aquarium. I had a 300 gal fish tank back in the late 1980s and even a fish only tank of that size is just striking, especially when you can get some gorgeous fish. My favorite mix of color in my tank was the large amount of bright orange I had in the tank. I had a flame angel, an Adult Garibaldi and a mid level Clarion angel in the tank. I also have a gorgeous Asfur, Queen, Christmas Islands Emporer, a Majestic and a Conspiculous. As you can tell, I had money back then. I could NEVER afford a tank like tht today, especially when Clarions now sell for as much as $10,000.00!! Good luck whichever way you go! Rob

09-30-2006, 06:16 AM	#37
Jav400 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 9,725	No worries about the reef tank, what I set up will be a fish tank. A tank full of rock doesn't interest me, JMO. The Zebra Moray on the special creatures page was mine. Its a personal photo I took years ago of the one I had. Somewhere around here I have a photo of the teira I had as well. Him I kept for over 11 years or so, and it died while I was wandering around Europe and someone else was trying to maintain my tank. Both of those I could feed by hand and they are both again definates that I will get for the new tank. If I had my druthers I would like to try my hand with a pinnatus, but I doubt very seriously of ever finding one, and the track record of those isn't good. Other than those 2 definates, I'm not sure what I want. A majestic would be nice, I don't care much for queens. I wouldn't argue about a blue face, or maybe a small ray if I could find one I like. Flames I had before and don't want another one, an Asfur is still open. The jury is still out on the total contents, but I have pretty much made up my mind on at least a 150, ( I like the 28" ) or a 180. Michael Administrator of Inside:SereneScreen Aquarium Forum, Chatroom, Fan Site & *Gallery* DVD Collection

10-02-2006, 12:58 PM	#38
rschuh Registered Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9	Originally posted by Jav400: No worries about the reef tank, what I set up will be a fish tank. A tank full of rock doesn't interest me, JMO. The Zebra Moray on the special creatures page was mine. Its a personal photo I took years ago of the one I had. Somewhere around here I have a photo of the teira I had as well. Him I kept for over 11 years or so, and it died while I was wandering around Europe and someone else was trying to maintain my tank. Both of those I could feed by hand and they are both again definates that I will get for the new tank. If I had my druthers I would like to try my hand with a pinnatus, but I doubt very seriously of ever finding one, and the track record of those isn't good. Other than those 2 definates, I'm not sure what I want. A majestic would be nice, I don't care much for queens. I wouldn't argue about a blue face, or maybe a small ray if I could find one I like. Flames I had before and don't want another one, an Asfur is still open. The jury is still out on the total contents, but I have pretty much made up my mind on at least a 150, ( I like the 28" ) or a 180. Michael, I had a 150 set up with Brackish water, a reverse flow undergravel and a protein skimmer and kept 3 Pinatus and 2 Tierra bats alive for over 3 years. I did keep some live rock in the tank also for them to pick on, but they are very tough to get eating intially. You can't have any other fish that will be even slightly aggressive with them either. An adult Pinatus is still one of my favorite fish of all times. The Orbics do well in just about any tank and while they don't have the color of finnage of a Tierra or Pinatus, they have a ton of personality. Most of the puffers tend to act like little puppies after a while too. :-) Rob

10-02-2006, 01:19 PM	#39
Jav400 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 9,725	Its been awhile and I will have to go back and do some studying and see if I am starting fights or feeding other fish with my choices, but right now my first choices would be for a Pinnatus, zebra eel, majestic, blue face, french, maybe something like a declivis or meyer's butterfly that you don't usually see, and/or a Mandarin if he doesn't end up as lunch. A few dwarf lions might be decent as well and/or some Moorish Idols. Only time will tell, as for something like a clarion you can have it. In my region I have to see enough orange as it is, I for sure won't have it in my tank. Michael Administrator of Inside:SereneScreen Aquarium Forum, Chatroom, Fan Site & *Gallery* DVD Collection

10-02-2006, 02:37 PM	#40
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Rob, Good reading - but may I suggest you insert blank lines between the paragraphs to make it easier to read. /Tiny Readability Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think. "We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.