Mac OSX 10.2 Jaggies?

EdwardT · 09-07-2002, 07:05 PM

Ever since upgrading to Mac OSX 10.2, I've noticed that the fishes don't look as smooth, there is a jagginess to them.

As shown below:

This was not the case with OSX 10.1.5. Does anyone else notice this?

EdwardT · 10-30-2002, 05:22 PM

This topic has been seen over 100 times, but no one has responded.

Am I the only one with the jagged looking fish with OSX 10.2.1?

Even with the latest ATI update, the OS9 version of Marine Aquarium looks smoother than OSX.

JimO'Connor · 10-30-2002, 09:19 PM

I haven't seen this. Please send an ASP (Apple System Profiler) report.

mrtew · 10-30-2002, 09:57 PM

WOW! I see it too. I've noticed the Jaguar jaggies before, but they aren't as visible when the fish are moving as they are in your still shot, and I thought they'd always been there. When I saw your pictures above I downloaded the OS9 version and tried it out... my jaw almost hit the floor. The fishies are 3X clearer, sharper and more realistic than in Jagwire. Somebody has to get to the bottom of this!!!

Mac OS X 10.2.1 (6D52) Darwin Kernel Version 6.1: Fri Sep 6 23:24:34 PDT 2002; root:xnu/xnu-344.2.obj~2/RELEASE_PPC
667 MHz Bus speed 133 MHz L2 cache size 256K PowerBook G4 (version = 2.1) |
SODIMM0/J16TOP SDRAM 256 MB SODIMM1/J16BOTTOM SDRAM 256 MB

EdwardT · 10-31-2002, 03:08 PM

Jim,

How should I send the Apple System profile to you?

FYI, I am running a B&W G3 400MHZ with ATI Radeon 7000 Mac Edition, OSX 10.2.1, 320 MB RAM.

The jaggies began with 10.2, prior OS 10.1.5 and 9.2 did not have the jaggies.

Ed

JimO'Connor · 10-31-2002, 03:57 PM

This sounds like a driver issue, and I'm not going to be able to help you with it, but I'll ask around.

People who need to get in touch with me directly should use the feedback form on our web site - www.orderndev.com. While you are there, take a look at the About Us page and snoop around a bit.

EdwardT · 10-31-2002, 06:00 PM

I guess that means you won't be needing my Apple system profile.

Its ironic that a better video card (ATI Radeon 7000 vs ATI Rage 128), and an updated OS (OSX 10.2.1 vs 10.1.5 or 9.2) would produce a poorer quality output for Marine Aquarium.

Its disappointing, I don't enjoy Marine Aquarium as much anymore. Only the rare times I boot up in 9.2, then I can fully enjoy Marine Aquarium.

mrtew · 10-31-2002, 07:12 PM

I agree. After the whole blue screen issure and now with the jaggies, I don't feel like Marine Aquarium is an amazing experience anymore... I see the flaws instead of the brilliance. I sure hope that something can be done to fix it.

11-05-2002, 01:00 PM

So what's the latest on this? Are we waiting for another ATI update? Or waiting for OSX 10.3? Or waiting for Marine Aquarium 1.2? Or waiting for a new screensaver even cooler than MA? Or waiting until our eyes get bad enough that we won't notice the Jag-ies? Or waiting until we give up on OSX alltogether and go back to OS9 or to Windoze? Or what?

And is everyone having this problem and just being quiet about it because it's not that noticable? Or is it only a few RevB TiBook667 owners?

JimO'Connor · 11-07-2002, 12:16 PM

I am running Jag on an old Dual 1Gig G4 and I don't have jaggies. In fact, MA on Mac looks about 25% better than it does on my windows machine, even though the textures are being stretched further to cover a _much_ bigger monitor.

Apple engineering hasn't been able to shed any light on this issue for me and I can't repro it yet.

Grab may introduce issues which aren't really there because of the double buffering of the screen. This happened on 10.1.5 anyway. Haven't used Grab on MA on 10.2.

mrtew · 11-07-2002, 09:41 PM

I think I've spotted something that may provide a clue as to the problem. I was playing around with capturing my fish in Jaguar (dark-blue background) and OS9 (black background) and noticed that in addition to the quality being markedly different, the fish are very noticable smaller in OSX than in OS9. These captures look exactly like what I see on my screen and I was running the program full screen in both OS's.

My theory is that for some reason the fish are now being scaled down in Jaguar and that is causing the jagged lines. I see almost the exact same effect when I set a picture that is too big or too small as my desktop picture wallpaper. Smooth lines and textures get very similar jaggedness to them which I believe is caused by the pixels in the image not lining up with the pixels of the screen. This is further confirmed when I look at MA in a window and observe that the jaggedness changes depending on how large I make the window... as I drag it bigger and smaller the jaggies can be made very intense or almost vanish with just a subtle jaggy line or two passing across the fish as it swims.

Maybe there is a simple line of code or preference that can be corrected to fix the entire problem by resetting the scale to 1:1. I would attribute it to my 1152/768 semiwide screen on my TiBook, but my roommate's old iMac600 has the exact same problem.

It's good to know that you are looking into the problem still and I am hopeful that the solution will be found very soon. Maybe my observations will help!

EdwardT · 11-08-2002, 02:50 PM

You may be on to something. My usual resolution for my 17 inch monitor is 832x624 and I can see the jaggies. However, if I change the resolution to 1280x1024, then the jaggies are almost gone!

In either resolution, the fishes are the same size, so its not an issue where the fishes are smaller in the 1280x1024 resolution, so the jaggies are not as visible.

JimO'Connor · 11-10-2002, 07:48 AM

You run OS X at 832x624? Are you trying to simulate having a Mac 128 with a 9" screen? :^)

mrtew · 11-10-2002, 08:48 AM

Originally posted by JimO'Connor
You run OS X at 832x624? Are you trying to simulate having a Mac 128 with a 9" screen? :^)

Darnit! When I saw your post I thought you'd found the solution to the jaggies problem! Come on; tell us where the code is that controls the size the fish are drawn at. I am really thinking that could be the problem. What does engineering say? I want my beautiful fishies back!

mrtew · 11-10-2002, 10:05 AM

Nevermind... I was doing more screenshots in OS9 and OSX today looking for more clues and I think the fish are the same size in both. I don't know why they looked different before.... maybe they weren't full screen after all or maybe they were on different swim path layers. I guess that the rendering size probably isn't the problem... I think I give up. I sure hope that somone else can figure something out. Later.

Yellow Tang · 11-11-2002, 03:42 AM

"different swim path layers" - you got it!

mrtew · 11-23-2002, 07:01 PM

Well I was so frustrated with the jaggies and the answer that it was the video card and drivers and that it doesn't happen on other computer that I went and bought a new one. I got the new PowerBook G4 1gz and guess what? I still have the jaggies. That's right... new computer, new processor, new video card, new drivers, new preferences, new screen, and same old jaggies. Is anyone working on this? Its such a shame to see the fish look like bad computer generated fish, when they look so real in OS9. Doesn't anyone care? And speaking of anyone caring.... what ever happened to.....

JimO'Connor · 11-24-2002, 08:43 AM

Jim Sachs is in charge of livestock, so I can't help you there.

And at the moment I can't help you with the Jaggies. As you noted, you don't have them in v10.1.5, but you do with 10.2. Apple has changed its usage of OpenGL considerably from 10.1.5 to 10.2.

I'm working on meeting a deadline at the moment, so I can't devote any time right now to this issue. However, it will get my attention after the deadline.

I read the feedback from the orderndev site as it comes in, so that is the best place to ping me if you want to be sure I see it. I visit here every few days.

Jim Sachs · 11-24-2002, 10:56 AM

The Mandarin Gobi is on the Fish-To-Do list. The main problem with this fish is that is has a totally different movement from the others in the Aquarium. They like to lay on the bottom of the tank, which violates my "No closer than 2 inches from the bottom rule". This means that it would need a shadow, and that brings up a whole new technology.

mrtew · 11-24-2002, 10:59 AM

Thanks for the replies Jims. At least I know you guys still care even if things move too slow for me! :-]

09-07-2002, 07:05 PM	#1
EdwardT Registered Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 21	Mac OSX 10.2 Jaggies? Ever since upgrading to Mac OSX 10.2, I've noticed that the fishes don't look as smooth, there is a jagginess to them. As shown below: This was not the case with OSX 10.1.5. Does anyone else notice this?

10-30-2002, 05:22 PM	#2
EdwardT Registered Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 21	I'm the only one? This topic has been seen over 100 times, but no one has responded. Am I the only one with the jagged looking fish with OSX 10.2.1? Even with the latest ATI update, the OS9 version of Marine Aquarium looks smoother than OSX.

10-30-2002, 09:19 PM	#3
JimO'Connor Mac Development Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kenai, Alaska Posts: 678	I haven't seen this. Please send an ASP (Apple System Profiler) report. Jim O'Connor Order N Development

10-30-2002, 09:57 PM	#4
mrtew Registered Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: michigan Posts: 109	I see it too! WOW! I see it too. I've noticed the Jaguar jaggies before, but they aren't as visible when the fish are moving as they are in your still shot, and I thought they'd always been there. When I saw your pictures above I downloaded the OS9 version and tried it out... my jaw almost hit the floor. The fishies are 3X clearer, sharper and more realistic than in Jagwire. Somebody has to get to the bottom of this!!! Mac OS X 10.2.1 (6D52) Darwin Kernel Version 6.1: Fri Sep 6 23:24:34 PDT 2002; root:xnu/xnu-344.2.obj~2/RELEASE_PPC 667 MHz Bus speed 133 MHz L2 cache size 256K PowerBook G4 (version = 2.1) \| SODIMM0/J16TOP SDRAM 256 MB SODIMM1/J16BOTTOM SDRAM 256 MB mrtew

10-31-2002, 03:08 PM	#5
EdwardT Registered Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 21	Apple System profile Jim, How should I send the Apple System profile to you? FYI, I am running a B&W G3 400MHZ with ATI Radeon 7000 Mac Edition, OSX 10.2.1, 320 MB RAM. The jaggies began with 10.2, prior OS 10.1.5 and 9.2 did not have the jaggies. Ed

10-31-2002, 03:57 PM	#6
JimO'Connor Mac Development Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kenai, Alaska Posts: 678	This sounds like a driver issue, and I'm not going to be able to help you with it, but I'll ask around. People who need to get in touch with me directly should use the feedback form on our web site - www.orderndev.com. While you are there, take a look at the About Us page and snoop around a bit. Jim O'Connor Order N Development Last edited by feldon34; 10-31-2002 at 04:06 PM.

10-31-2002, 06:00 PM	#7
EdwardT Registered Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 21	I guess that means you won't be needing my Apple system profile. Its ironic that a better video card (ATI Radeon 7000 vs ATI Rage 128), and an updated OS (OSX 10.2.1 vs 10.1.5 or 9.2) would produce a poorer quality output for Marine Aquarium. Its disappointing, I don't enjoy Marine Aquarium as much anymore. Only the rare times I boot up in 9.2, then I can fully enjoy Marine Aquarium.

10-31-2002, 07:12 PM	#8
mrtew Registered Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: michigan Posts: 109	I agree. After the whole blue screen issure and now with the jaggies, I don't feel like Marine Aquarium is an amazing experience anymore... I see the flaws instead of the brilliance. I sure hope that something can be done to fix it. mrtew

11-05-2002, 01:00 PM	#9
Unregistered Guest Posts: n/a	So what's the latest on this? Are we waiting for another ATI update? Or waiting for OSX 10.3? Or waiting for Marine Aquarium 1.2? Or waiting for a new screensaver even cooler than MA? Or waiting until our eyes get bad enough that we won't notice the Jag-ies? Or waiting until we give up on OSX alltogether and go back to OS9 or to Windoze? Or what? And is everyone having this problem and just being quiet about it because it's not that noticable? Or is it only a few RevB TiBook667 owners?

11-07-2002, 12:16 PM	#10
JimO'Connor Mac Development Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kenai, Alaska Posts: 678	I am running Jag on an old Dual 1Gig G4 and I don't have jaggies. In fact, MA on Mac looks about 25% better than it does on my windows machine, even though the textures are being stretched further to cover a _much_ bigger monitor. Apple engineering hasn't been able to shed any light on this issue for me and I can't repro it yet. Grab may introduce issues which aren't really there because of the double buffering of the screen. This happened on 10.1.5 anyway. Haven't used Grab on MA on 10.2. Jim O'Connor Order N Development

11-07-2002, 09:41 PM	#11
mrtew Registered Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: michigan Posts: 109	I think I've spotted something that may provide a clue as to the problem. I was playing around with capturing my fish in Jaguar (dark-blue background) and OS9 (black background) and noticed that in addition to the quality being markedly different, the fish are very noticable smaller in OSX than in OS9. These captures look exactly like what I see on my screen and I was running the program full screen in both OS's. My theory is that for some reason the fish are now being scaled down in Jaguar and that is causing the jagged lines. I see almost the exact same effect when I set a picture that is too big or too small as my desktop picture wallpaper. Smooth lines and textures get very similar jaggedness to them which I believe is caused by the pixels in the image not lining up with the pixels of the screen. This is further confirmed when I look at MA in a window and observe that the jaggedness changes depending on how large I make the window... as I drag it bigger and smaller the jaggies can be made very intense or almost vanish with just a subtle jaggy line or two passing across the fish as it swims. Maybe there is a simple line of code or preference that can be corrected to fix the entire problem by resetting the scale to 1:1. I would attribute it to my 1152/768 semiwide screen on my TiBook, but my roommate's old iMac600 has the exact same problem. It's good to know that you are looking into the problem still and I am hopeful that the solution will be found very soon. Maybe my observations will help! mrtew Last edited by mrtew; 11-07-2002 at 09:47 PM.

11-08-2002, 02:50 PM	#12
EdwardT Registered Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 21	You may be on to something. My usual resolution for my 17 inch monitor is 832x624 and I can see the jaggies. However, if I change the resolution to 1280x1024, then the jaggies are almost gone! In either resolution, the fishes are the same size, so its not an issue where the fishes are smaller in the 1280x1024 resolution, so the jaggies are not as visible.

11-10-2002, 07:48 AM	#13
JimO'Connor Mac Development Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kenai, Alaska Posts: 678	You run OS X at 832x624? Are you trying to simulate having a Mac 128 with a 9" screen? :^) Jim O'Connor Order N Development

11-10-2002, 08:48 AM	#14
mrtew Registered Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: michigan Posts: 109	Originally posted by JimO'Connor You run OS X at 832x624? Are you trying to simulate having a Mac 128 with a 9" screen? :^) Darnit! When I saw your post I thought you'd found the solution to the jaggies problem! Come on; tell us where the code is that controls the size the fish are drawn at. I am really thinking that could be the problem. What does engineering say? I want my beautiful fishies back! mrtew Last edited by mrtew; 11-10-2002 at 08:51 AM.

11-10-2002, 10:05 AM	#15
mrtew Registered Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: michigan Posts: 109	Nevermind... I was doing more screenshots in OS9 and OSX today looking for more clues and I think the fish are the same size in both. I don't know why they looked different before.... maybe they weren't full screen after all or maybe they were on different swim path layers. I guess that the rendering size probably isn't the problem... I think I give up. I sure hope that somone else can figure something out. Later. mrtew

11-11-2002, 03:42 AM	#16
Yellow Tang YT Join Date: Jan 2002 Tournaments Won: 1 Location: Germany Posts: 729	"different swim path layers" - you got it!

11-23-2002, 07:01 PM	#17
mrtew Registered Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: michigan Posts: 109	Well I was so frustrated with the jaggies and the answer that it was the video card and drivers and that it doesn't happen on other computer that I went and bought a new one. I got the new PowerBook G4 1gz and guess what? I still have the jaggies. That's right... new computer, new processor, new video card, new drivers, new preferences, new screen, and same old jaggies. Is anyone working on this? Its such a shame to see the fish look like bad computer generated fish, when they look so real in OS9. Doesn't anyone care? And speaking of anyone caring.... what ever happened to..... mrtew

11-24-2002, 08:43 AM	#18
JimO'Connor Mac Development Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kenai, Alaska Posts: 678	Jim Sachs is in charge of livestock, so I can't help you there. And at the moment I can't help you with the Jaggies. As you noted, you don't have them in v10.1.5, but you do with 10.2. Apple has changed its usage of OpenGL considerably from 10.1.5 to 10.2. I'm working on meeting a deadline at the moment, so I can't devote any time right now to this issue. However, it will get my attention after the deadline. I read the feedback from the orderndev site as it comes in, so that is the best place to ping me if you want to be sure I see it. I visit here every few days. Jim O'Connor Order N Development

11-24-2002, 10:56 AM	#19
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,788	The Mandarin Gobi is on the Fish-To-Do list. The main problem with this fish is that is has a totally different movement from the others in the Aquarium. They like to lay on the bottom of the tank, which violates my "No closer than 2 inches from the bottom rule". This means that it would need a shadow, and that brings up a whole new technology. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium Last edited by Jim Sachs; 11-24-2002 at 11:00 AM.

11-24-2002, 10:59 AM	#20
mrtew Registered Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: michigan Posts: 109	Thanks for the replies Jims. At least I know you guys still care even if things move too slow for me! :-] mrtew