Question about 3d functionality

BUZZIN_NICE · 11-17-2011, 06:09 AM

Hi,

I have a question ideally for Jim to cast his eyes over...

I have nvidia 3d vision and having tested the screensaver in 3d, i am left with a few questions that i'd like to ask that, i feel may improve this product in 3d mode.

with my 3d kit i have the option of adjusting the depth of 3d, i very much prefer to max out the depth setting, this in turns makes the tank look awesome and give very good depth. However, when setting this depth to max i tend to get a ghosting effect of all the fish because the depth setting is too high.

Is it possible to make the tank adaptable to a great margin of 3d depth, whilst maintaining only slight adjustment of the fish to counter the problem i am experiencing?

this problem occurs in multiple 3d games too, to get the most awe inspiring images requires the higher depth settings but in some details this creates a ghosting effect that is way out and ruins it.

regards,

buzzin

Wizwad · 11-17-2011, 06:29 AM

Buzzin, ghosting (or lack of) in 3D is going to be determined purely by the 3D hardware you're using. Jim has no control over that aspect at all. He just provides the raw data of fish/coral positions, etc., to the computer and the graphics card then interprets it from there.

I also have nVidia 3D glasses used with an Acer 3D screen, and I get a bit of ghosting as well. That's not the fault of the Aquarium software; it's the fault of the glasses and the screen. And in your case this is backed up by the fact that the games you're playing are also ghosted at max depth settings.

Jav400 · 11-17-2011, 06:46 AM

I think what B wants is for Jim to rework the entire aquarium making it deeper so he doesn't have to turn up the effect so high ending up with the ghosting in the first place.

It doesn't really work that way B. What you are asking would take months and months of work by Jim to do, and it really wouldn't change the effect. You can't just "pick up" objects in the aquarium and move them back some. It is way more complicated than that. It would basically take starting over from scratch, which isn't going to happen.

As far as the 3D effect, yes Mark is right. the ghosting is a product of the 3D software and can occur to some extent at any range. Members here, myself included, experimented with 3D for some time years ago. You are right it does make an awesome effect, but it will never be perfect.

Wizwad · 11-17-2011, 07:16 AM

Real-time full colour holography for the win!

(I wish!)

BUZZIN_NICE · 11-17-2011, 07:38 AM

thanks for the great replys. what i find strange though, is mostly backgrounds often tend to work perfectly at higher depths and it seems like in-screen objects such as fish tend to be the effected things with ghosting.

i dont mean ghosting as the term for blurring - more so that the dual images have seperate too much because of the higher depth setting.

the same applies with games, at full depth 90% of the images seem ace but then 10% of such will be effected by this ghosting. e.g. i play test drive unlimited 2 which is amazing at full depth, everything looks ace apart from the odd few trees.

what i am struggling to comprehend is why only certain objects seem to be effected?

thanks for your explanations and patience

Jav400 · 11-17-2011, 08:18 AM

Generally I think it has to do with movement. The background images while they are moving if the screen is panning, are stationary.

The fish are all over the place in a purely random fashion. You can't predict where they will move to next, and therefore the 3D software can't either, so it is always slightly playing "catch-up". Granted this is done in microseconds because of the computer nature of the beast, but it is still doing it, with a ton of polygons to have to deal with, so I think random moving objects sort of stress out the properties of the 3D effect.

At least that was always the way I thought of the process.

BUZZIN_NICE · 11-17-2011, 08:35 AM

Originally posted by Jav400:

Generally I think it has to do with movement. The background images while they are moving if the screen is panning, are stationary.

The fish are all over the place in a purely random fashion. You can't predict where they will move to next, and therefore the 3D software can't either, so it is always slightly playing "catch-up". Granted this is done in microseconds because of the computer nature of the beast, but it is still doing it, with a ton of polygons to have to deal with, so I think random moving objects sort of stress out the properties of the 3D effect.

At least that was always the way I thought of the process.

excellent explanation, now i see exactly what you mean. cheers for that, it makes perfect sense and seems totally logically.

i didnt understand the workings of 3d and by how you explain, 3d works independently of the objects on the screen. i was thinking 3d may work of taking snapshots of the whole screen and all objects, and then quickly refreshing an overlay, slightly off-set creating 3d image. this is the reason i couldnt understand why increasing the depth worked for some objects but not others.

i hope that makes sense...

Jim Sachs · 11-17-2011, 10:29 AM

Ghosting is caused mostly by the monitor, specifically the "kill rate" of the pixels. A cheap monitor will have a slow kill rate, meaning that the pixels forming a fish will not be completely finished losing their glow in the 1/60 of a second it takes for the glasses to switch from one eye to the other. The glasses themselves can also contribute to this if they don't completely block the image for the "wrong eye".

It's easy to see which objects will suffer from ghosting - just look at the screen without the glasses. The farther apart the two copies of an object are, and the higher contrast the background is behind them, the more ghosting you'll see when you put on the glasses.

The distant background is usually "ground zero", meaning that the two images are offset very little. When viewed without the glasses, this part will remain fairly clear - hence no ghosting. The early 3D glasses had much more versatile controls built into the drivers than any of the current ones seem to. From the keyboard, you could adjust not only the depth, but the position of Ground Zero. I always set this to be the gravel at the front of the tank, which made the monitor look like a real aquarium with the gravel right up against the glass.

The others are right, I have no control over ghosting. All I can recommend is setting the background colors to something fairly neutral, as a dark background makes ghosting worse because of the high contrast with the fish.

ESHIREY · 11-17-2011, 01:14 PM

Jim is right about the ghosting and the monitor. A friend of mine has ghosting in his games in 3d where in the same games I don't. But then again he didn't pay what I did for my monitor. I have the Alienware AW2310 3D. Smooth as silk and so far no ghosting. I'll check and see how much if any ghosting I get with the aquarium when I go back to the room.

BUZZIN_NICE · 11-21-2011, 08:53 AM

Originally posted by ESHIREY:

Jim is right about the ghosting and the monitor. A friend of mine has ghosting in his games in 3d where in the same games I don't. But then again he didn't pay what I did for my monitor. I have the Alienware AW2310 3D. Smooth as silk and so far no ghosting. I'll check and see how much if any ghosting I get with the aquarium when I go back to the room.

i've got the exact same monitor as you, which certainly wasnt cheap lol but i am getting the ghosting which is odd. i am using nvidia 3 vision, i dont get the ghosting unless i increase the depth, have you tried increasing the depth on your 3d setup?

thanks for the replies guys and i'll try and adjust the background to a more neutral colour to test!

11-17-2011, 06:09 AM	#1
BUZZIN_NICE Registered Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 22	Question about 3d functionality Hi, I have a question ideally for Jim to cast his eyes over... I have nvidia 3d vision and having tested the screensaver in 3d, i am left with a few questions that i'd like to ask that, i feel may improve this product in 3d mode. with my 3d kit i have the option of adjusting the depth of 3d, i very much prefer to max out the depth setting, this in turns makes the tank look awesome and give very good depth. However, when setting this depth to max i tend to get a ghosting effect of all the fish because the depth setting is too high. Is it possible to make the tank adaptable to a great margin of 3d depth, whilst maintaining only slight adjustment of the fish to counter the problem i am experiencing? this problem occurs in multiple 3d games too, to get the most awe inspiring images requires the higher depth settings but in some details this creates a ghosting effect that is way out and ruins it. regards, buzzin

11-17-2011, 06:29 AM	#2
Wizwad Only me... Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 2,584	Buzzin, ghosting (or lack of) in 3D is going to be determined purely by the 3D hardware you're using. Jim has no control over that aspect at all. He just provides the raw data of fish/coral positions, etc., to the computer and the graphics card then interprets it from there. I also have nVidia 3D glasses used with an Acer 3D screen, and I get a bit of ghosting as well. That's not the fault of the Aquarium software; it's the fault of the glasses and the screen. And in your case this is backed up by the fact that the games you're playing are also ghosted at max depth settings. Mark ----------- Intel i7 12700K \| Aorus Z690 Pro \| Corsair DDR5 5600 32GB \| Asus Dual RTX3060ti 6GB v2 Mini OC \| Corsair RM850 Gold PSU \| 1TB NVMe M.2 WD Black SN850 \| 4TB Seagate BarraCuda HDD \| Corsair Airflow 5000D Case \| HP 32QHD 4K Monitor \| Windows 11 x64 Professional

11-17-2011, 06:46 AM	#3
Jav400 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 9,725	I think what B wants is for Jim to rework the entire aquarium making it deeper so he doesn't have to turn up the effect so high ending up with the ghosting in the first place. It doesn't really work that way B. What you are asking would take months and months of work by Jim to do, and it really wouldn't change the effect. You can't just "pick up" objects in the aquarium and move them back some. It is way more complicated than that. It would basically take starting over from scratch, which isn't going to happen. As far as the 3D effect, yes Mark is right. the ghosting is a product of the 3D software and can occur to some extent at any range. Members here, myself included, experimented with 3D for some time years ago. You are right it does make an awesome effect, but it will never be perfect. Michael Administrator of Inside:SereneScreen Aquarium Forum, Chatroom, Fan Site & *Gallery* DVD Collection

11-17-2011, 07:16 AM	#4
Wizwad Only me... Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 2,584	Real-time full colour holography for the win! (I wish!) Mark ----------- Intel i7 12700K \| Aorus Z690 Pro \| Corsair DDR5 5600 32GB \| Asus Dual RTX3060ti 6GB v2 Mini OC \| Corsair RM850 Gold PSU \| 1TB NVMe M.2 WD Black SN850 \| 4TB Seagate BarraCuda HDD \| Corsair Airflow 5000D Case \| HP 32QHD 4K Monitor \| Windows 11 x64 Professional

11-17-2011, 08:18 AM	#6
Jav400 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tennessee Posts: 9,725	Generally I think it has to do with movement. The background images while they are moving if the screen is panning, are stationary. The fish are all over the place in a purely random fashion. You can't predict where they will move to next, and therefore the 3D software can't either, so it is always slightly playing "catch-up". Granted this is done in microseconds because of the computer nature of the beast, but it is still doing it, with a ton of polygons to have to deal with, so I think random moving objects sort of stress out the properties of the 3D effect. At least that was always the way I thought of the process. Michael Administrator of Inside:SereneScreen Aquarium Forum, Chatroom, Fan Site & *Gallery* DVD Collection

11-17-2011, 07:38 AM	#5
BUZZIN_NICE Registered Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 22	thanks for the great replys. what i find strange though, is mostly backgrounds often tend to work perfectly at higher depths and it seems like in-screen objects such as fish tend to be the effected things with ghosting. i dont mean ghosting as the term for blurring - more so that the dual images have seperate too much because of the higher depth setting. the same applies with games, at full depth 90% of the images seem ace but then 10% of such will be effected by this ghosting. e.g. i play test drive unlimited 2 which is amazing at full depth, everything looks ace apart from the odd few trees. what i am struggling to comprehend is why only certain objects seem to be effected? thanks for your explanations and patience

11-17-2011, 08:35 AM	#7
BUZZIN_NICE Registered Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 22	Originally posted by Jav400: Generally I think it has to do with movement. The background images while they are moving if the screen is panning, are stationary. The fish are all over the place in a purely random fashion. You can't predict where they will move to next, and therefore the 3D software can't either, so it is always slightly playing "catch-up". Granted this is done in microseconds because of the computer nature of the beast, but it is still doing it, with a ton of polygons to have to deal with, so I think random moving objects sort of stress out the properties of the 3D effect. At least that was always the way I thought of the process. excellent explanation, now i see exactly what you mean. cheers for that, it makes perfect sense and seems totally logically. i didnt understand the workings of 3d and by how you explain, 3d works independently of the objects on the screen. i was thinking 3d may work of taking snapshots of the whole screen and all objects, and then quickly refreshing an overlay, slightly off-set creating 3d image. this is the reason i couldnt understand why increasing the depth worked for some objects but not others. i hope that makes sense...

11-17-2011, 10:29 AM	#8
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,787	Ghosting is caused mostly by the monitor, specifically the "kill rate" of the pixels. A cheap monitor will have a slow kill rate, meaning that the pixels forming a fish will not be completely finished losing their glow in the 1/60 of a second it takes for the glasses to switch from one eye to the other. The glasses themselves can also contribute to this if they don't completely block the image for the "wrong eye". It's easy to see which objects will suffer from ghosting - just look at the screen without the glasses. The farther apart the two copies of an object are, and the higher contrast the background is behind them, the more ghosting you'll see when you put on the glasses. The distant background is usually "ground zero", meaning that the two images are offset very little. When viewed without the glasses, this part will remain fairly clear - hence no ghosting. The early 3D glasses had much more versatile controls built into the drivers than any of the current ones seem to. From the keyboard, you could adjust not only the depth, but the position of Ground Zero. I always set this to be the gravel at the front of the tank, which made the monitor look like a real aquarium with the gravel right up against the glass. The others are right, I have no control over ghosting. All I can recommend is setting the background colors to something fairly neutral, as a dark background makes ghosting worse because of the high contrast with the fish. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

11-17-2011, 01:14 PM	#9
ESHIREY Smilie Dragon Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lebanon, PA Posts: 4,725	Jim is right about the ghosting and the monitor. A friend of mine has ghosting in his games in 3d where in the same games I don't. But then again he didn't pay what I did for my monitor. I have the Alienware AW2310 3D. Smooth as silk and so far no ghosting. I'll check and see how much if any ghosting I get with the aquarium when I go back to the room. Thank you for taking the time to read this.

11-21-2011, 08:53 AM	#10
BUZZIN_NICE Registered Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 22	Originally posted by ESHIREY: Jim is right about the ghosting and the monitor. A friend of mine has ghosting in his games in 3d where in the same games I don't. But then again he didn't pay what I did for my monitor. I have the Alienware AW2310 3D. Smooth as silk and so far no ghosting. I'll check and see how much if any ghosting I get with the aquarium when I go back to the room. i've got the exact same monitor as you, which certainly wasnt cheap lol but i am getting the ghosting which is odd. i am using nvidia 3 vision, i dont get the ghosting unless i increase the depth, have you tried increasing the depth on your 3d setup? thanks for the replies guys and i'll try and adjust the background to a more neutral colour to test!