New Settings Panel Prototype - Page 3

Tiny Turtle · 12-05-2001, 03:24 PM

Consumers are used to faster turn arounds for bug fixes and updates...

Are they really? I'd say the rate of updates and bugfixes has been quite impressive and apart from the major makover with the 3D background and the boxed version we've seen almost monthly updates on this product. How often would you say was often enough?

I agree with you and Mr. Feldon on the first part – Mr. Sachs time & talent is better spent on breathing life into pixels, leaving checkboxes and such to others (i.e. Prolific).

/Tiny

Spyder · 12-05-2001, 03:33 PM

Fair enough. Perhaps I should have used the words "new features" instead of "updates". I can't help but think that these could be worked into the program without sacrificing quality by adding a few extra programmers to increase turn around time.

With that said, I'm sure thats a money issue as people won't work for free, so I'm content sitting around waiting for the time being

Socrates · 12-05-2001, 04:01 PM

I agree pro programmers would normally be able to do it faster.

But I am concerned that prolific would do it any faster.

They have a shippable product that they are making money on.

Just getting prepayed customers the version 1.0 download is taking forever (in relation to how long it took one user on this board to solve the "problem").

I just wonder why Prolific will be real interested in spending it's own money on improving a part of the product that will make it better, but probably won't sell too many additional copies.

Other than bug fixes that could cause them liability (like a security problem, etc.) or extras they can sell, I don't see Prolific moving real fast on anything.

It's probably best if Jim takes the "ideal" setting panel, and then does something easier to implement that accomplishes many of the same things.

-----

As for the programming stuff, I know squat about C++, but I made a drag and drop page in Visual Basic 5 last night that allowed fish to drop from one half to the other and back in about 2 hours. It's all about using two arrays of "PICTURE" objects in VB and then setting "DragDrop" parameter to 1. Then I used "MouseDown" to set a variable and the "DragDrop" event to retrieve it. I doubt this helps much in C++, but it is easy as heck in VB.

feldon34 · 12-05-2001, 06:23 PM

I couldn't agree with you more Feldon! If Jim doesn't know how to do it, stick to what he's good at, and get someone else to fill in the gaps.

Even if Jim were great at the mundane process of Settings panels and Registry handling, I'd rather he offload this work to Will and focus on the art.

I just wonder why Prolific will be real interested in spending it's own money on improving a part of the product that will make it better, but probably won't sell too many additional copies.

The addons to the Aquarium will be quite lucrative. I envision a $20-30 pack that brings you the invertebrates, complex fish, etc. etc. Yes they don't make that much money on the 3D background now (I think sales would spike, but that's just my opinion), but it's an investment. And to be real honest, the more time Jim diverts on a Settings or Registry panel or, quite frankly, having to fix and maintain his computers (If I were in California, I'd make myself available as Jim's assistant to maintain his PCs in any nonobtrusive way that I can), the slower the return on that investment will come.

It's probably best if Jim takes the "ideal" setting panel, and then does something easier to implement that accomplishes many of the same things.

Prolific has already made themselves available to do the Settings and Registry code. It's not a question of if but when.

Jim Sachs · 12-05-2001, 07:29 PM

The only person at Prolific who can work on the Aquarium is Will Ware. He would like to tune up the Settings screen, but he's got about a dozen other Prolific projects to do first.

De Bobo Mon · 12-14-2001, 08:15 AM

I like the idea of the scrolling window for the fish... it would appear that the number of creatures will only grow and this would provide an interface that could expand as needed without making another change.

Regarding 640x480... it is my opinion that the ranks of users working at that resolution especially those with systems that would support the lushness of this screen saver is far smaller than percieved. I think 800x600 should be the default minimum considered for the UI.

On the other hand... what do I know.

feldon34 · 12-28-2001, 09:21 PM

The 2 prototypes fit perfectly on a 640x480 screen.

Shinsa · 01-14-2002, 03:32 AM

Now thats a good idea! Have seven slots for the fish as empty holes. Drag and drop the fish you want, right into the hole.

If you want an empty slot, drag in a "blank".

(I) If you want random fish, drag in the random image (an icon of several fish) and that would open a pop up menu for fine tuning (with the sliders) the random order of fish FOR THAT SLOT! Each slot could have a diferent possibility of random choices.

(II) Alternatly, if you happen to drag MORE than on fish into a slot (say you just dragged a Yellow Tang into slot one, and then dragged a Clown Fish into the SAME slot) you would get an even amount of randomnes for that slot of each fish dragged into it. And to show what fish is in that slot, the images would SCROLL by, (or even swim by! Can you in clude 3D in a windows menu item??) one after the other so you can see which fish is in that slot.

feldon34 · 01-14-2002, 11:46 AM

Now thats a good idea! Have seven slots for the fish as empty holes. Drag and drop the fish you want, right into the hole.

If you want an empty slot, drag in a "blank".

Actually, User Interface Guidelines dictate that if you want a blank spot, you drag the item from that box and drop it somewhere it doesn't go, like outside the window.

(I) If you want random fish, drag in the random image (an icon of several fish) and that would open a pop up menu for fine tuning (with the sliders) the random order of fish FOR THAT SLOT! Each slot could have a diferent possibility of random choices.

I think this would be very complicated and non-intuitive to have each slot be variably configurable with different fish. This would be very confusing for most users and would not give us much more control than the 2nd prototype I designed.

If you take another look at prototype #2, you'll see that you add the fish you always want, and then random question marks for the rest of the slots. Then on the Advanced panel, you determine with what frequency each fish should or should not go in the random slots.

(II) Alternately, if you happen to drag MORE than on fish into a slot (say you just dragged a Yellow Tang into slot one, and then dragged a Clown Fish into the SAME slot) you would get an even amount of randomnes for that slot of each fish dragged into it.

This would make it impossible to tell from a glance just what goes in each slot. According to user interface guidelines, dragging a fish twice into a slot should not double its likelyhood of appearing.

The whole point of each spot is for the user to demand 1 certain fish ALWAYS APPEAR in that slot. Trying to commingle randomness with requested fish would make for a tech support nightmare @ SereneScreen. I hate to be dogmatic about anything, but what you suggest goes completely against user interface guidelines.

And to show what fish is in that slot, the images would SCROLL by, (or even swim by one after the other so you can see which fish is in that slot.)

I'm not sure what extra power this gives you over prototype #2, but it would make it very confusing for users. This would make it extremely non-intuitive because most users will try to drag another fish to a slot and expect it to REPLACE the old fish and become the only fish in that slot, not add another fish to a ONE FISH SLOT.

Please look at prototype #2 again. Also, remember that in the version of the Aquarium with the 3D background, there will likely be 10 fish slots.

Can you in clude 3D in a windows menu item??)

Not easily.

You don't work for Macromedia do you?

Socrates · 01-14-2002, 12:17 PM

http://rmrcpa.com/lgk/fishdrop/fishdrop.htm

It's an ActiveX compiled VisualBasic executable. It took all of about 1.5 hours to create (including figruing out how drag and drop works).

I suppose you will probably need to have VB 5 runtimes on your PC but don't ask me where you get them, I don't mess with VB that much. You might get a security warning, I don't even know where to begin signing an activex control etc.

feldon34 · 01-16-2002, 03:56 PM

Awesome.

Shinsa · 01-17-2002, 02:32 AM

Morgan,

I know all those ideas were very unconventional. I was just "thinking outside the box".

But I think a simplified drag and drop would be best. Being able to visualize which fish is being added.

And of course the sliders approach to randomizing works best in my opinion.

The_Thrill · 02-23-2002, 12:21 PM

Can anyone help me with loading this? I get a warning about prohibited becasue of Active X. I would really like to see this if i could. Thanks

feldon34 · 02-23-2002, 01:13 PM

The_Thrill,

In order to run this, you have to go to Tools, Internet Options, Security tab, Custom Level buton at the bottom.

Temporarily turn on all the ActiveX stuff. You can do Prompt or Enable, but not Disable.

Once youre done with the settings panel above, put the settings back to what they were or other websites may be able to push a nasty script down to your computer.

SimonFearby · 03-03-2002, 05:40 AM

Spyder Said

I really don't want to sound rude when I say this, but perhaps more people working on the aquarium will need to be in order if it is going to try to go for a big consumer base? Consumers are used to faster turn arounds for bug fixes and updates, and the more people who buy this wonderful screensaver, the larger the demand will be. This definately shouldn't sacrifice the quality of the aquarium, but more people might be needed than just 1 at this point forward...

If I were Jim I would want the product to be the best it can be but getting more and more people in is not the answer.

Jim is an artist, if you were creating a masterpiece would you like to hand over your successful work to others and hope it turns out how you expected?

If you want to see my crappy masterpiece in the making goto http://www.fearby.com/products/3dfis...eenshots.shtml

Jim Sachs · 03-03-2002, 11:25 AM

It boils down to a popular saying in software development,
"If a woman can deliver a baby in 9 months, then 9 women should be able to do the job in one month."

When I first put the Aquarium on the market, I got a lot of calls from my friends at major software houses saying how much they liked it, and that they were assigning teams to do similar products. It's been 18 months, and by now we should be hip-deep in aquariums.

I've never been able to work well in a group. Even in grade school, when asked to help with a class mural, I told the teacher, "Either I do the whole thing, or I don't want any part of it." Arrogant little twerp, wasn't I?

Simon, you are one of only a half-dozen-or-so people in the world with first-hand knowlege of what it takes to do a project like this, so keep up the fire. I'll be among the first to buy your product when you get it done.

SimonFearby · 03-03-2002, 10:16 PM

Jim you dont need to buy it, I would be honoured to give you a free lifetime version.

As you know developing a fishtank on a computer is quite a challenge. People certainly look oddly at you for even trying to understand how a fish thinks.

It is quite hard to explain to people why you don’t want to release the next version of a fishtank because the fish are not thinking properly or because the fish properties (variables) are not flexible enough to allow the fish to make a decision to go in to a ‘search for food mode’ based on their health, hunger or energy properties etc

I would be happy to know what your biggest mistakes were in the development of your fishtank in the early stages (e.g trying to please everyone, spending to much time on stage xyz?)

Thanks Jim

Lightfeather · 03-05-2002, 08:23 PM

You know, Jim, I was the same way. I never wanted to work on murals with others either but only because I knew I had my own style and couldn't make it look like everyone else’s. I didn't want to "screw it up" so to speak.

When I was forced to replicate Monet’s "lilies" with eight other classmates they relieved me of the burden only a week into it after having to go over my work more than once.

Funny enough, I won two scholarships for my artwork that I did all on my own.

^_^

View Poll Results: Do you like Morgan's Settings panels?
Yes, I like Settings Panel A	17	22.08%
Yes, I like Settings Panel B (NEW!)	53	68.83%
Yes but with some reservations (I'm posting below)	4	5.19%
No, there are things I'd change (I might post below)	3	3.90%
No, I like the current settings panel	0	0%
Voters: 77. You may not vote on this poll

12-05-2001, 03:24 PM	#41
Tiny Turtle is pleased Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 7,365	Updates more often? Consumers are used to faster turn arounds for bug fixes and updates... Are they really? I'd say the rate of updates and bugfixes has been quite impressive and apart from the major makover with the 3D background and the boxed version we've seen almost monthly updates on this product. How often would you say was often enough? I agree with you and Mr. Feldon on the first part – Mr. Sachs time & talent is better spent on breathing life into pixels, leaving checkboxes and such to others (i.e. Prolific). /Tiny

12-05-2001, 04:01 PM	#43
Socrates Sage Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: West Hills, CA Posts: 1,529	I agree pro programmers would normally be able to do it faster. But I am concerned that prolific would do it any faster. They have a shippable product that they are making money on. Just getting prepayed customers the version 1.0 download is taking forever (in relation to how long it took one user on this board to solve the "problem"). I just wonder why Prolific will be real interested in spending it's own money on improving a part of the product that will make it better, but probably won't sell too many additional copies. Other than bug fixes that could cause them liability (like a security problem, etc.) or extras they can sell, I don't see Prolific moving real fast on anything. It's probably best if Jim takes the "ideal" setting panel, and then does something easier to implement that accomplishes many of the same things. ----- As for the programming stuff, I know squat about C++, but I made a drag and drop page in Visual Basic 5 last night that allowed fish to drop from one half to the other and back in about 2 hours. It's all about using two arrays of "PICTURE" objects in VB and then setting "DragDrop" parameter to 1. Then I used "MouseDown" to set a variable and the "DragDrop" event to retrieve it. I doubt this helps much in C++, but it is easy as heck in VB. Bat rays? We don't need no stinking bat rays!

12-05-2001, 06:23 PM	#44
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,938	I couldn't agree with you more Feldon! If Jim doesn't know how to do it, stick to what he's good at, and get someone else to fill in the gaps. Even if Jim were great at the mundane process of Settings panels and Registry handling, I'd rather he offload this work to Will and focus on the art. I just wonder why Prolific will be real interested in spending it's own money on improving a part of the product that will make it better, but probably won't sell too many additional copies. The addons to the Aquarium will be quite lucrative. I envision a $20-30 pack that brings you the invertebrates, complex fish, etc. etc. Yes they don't make that much money on the 3D background now (I think sales would spike, but that's just my opinion), but it's an investment. And to be real honest, the more time Jim diverts on a Settings or Registry panel or, quite frankly, having to fix and maintain his computers (If I were in California, I'd make myself available as Jim's assistant to maintain his PCs in any nonobtrusive way that I can), the slower the return on that investment will come. It's probably best if Jim takes the "ideal" setting panel, and then does something easier to implement that accomplishes many of the same things. Prolific has already made themselves available to do the Settings and Registry code. It's not a question of if but when. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman Last edited by feldon34; 12-05-2001 at 06:29 PM.

12-05-2001, 07:29 PM	#45
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,774	The only person at Prolific who can work on the Aquarium is Will Ware. He would like to tune up the Settings screen, but he's got about a dozen other Prolific projects to do first. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

12-05-2001, 03:33 PM	#42
Spyder Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Ontario Canada Posts: 36	Fair enough. Perhaps I should have used the words "new features" instead of "updates". I can't help but think that these could be worked into the program without sacrificing quality by adding a few extra programmers to increase turn around time. With that said, I'm sure thats a money issue as people won't work for free, so I'm content sitting around waiting for the time being

12-14-2001, 08:15 AM	#46
De Bobo Mon Registered Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Tennessee Posts: 30	I like the idea of the scrolling window for the fish... it would appear that the number of creatures will only grow and this would provide an interface that could expand as needed without making another change. Regarding 640x480... it is my opinion that the ranks of users working at that resolution especially those with systems that would support the lushness of this screen saver is far smaller than percieved. I think 800x600 should be the default minimum considered for the UI. On the other hand... what do I know.

12-28-2001, 09:21 PM	#47
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,938	The 2 prototypes fit perfectly on a 640x480 screen. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

01-14-2002, 03:32 AM	#48
Shinsa Registered Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Fayetteville, NC Posts: 407	Good idea! Now thats a good idea! Have seven slots for the fish as empty holes. Drag and drop the fish you want, right into the hole. If you want an empty slot, drag in a "blank". (I) If you want random fish, drag in the random image (an icon of several fish) and that would open a pop up menu for fine tuning (with the sliders) the random order of fish FOR THAT SLOT! Each slot could have a diferent possibility of random choices. (II) Alternatly, if you happen to drag MORE than on fish into a slot (say you just dragged a Yellow Tang into slot one, and then dragged a Clown Fish into the SAME slot) you would get an even amount of randomnes for that slot of each fish dragged into it. And to show what fish is in that slot, the images would SCROLL by, (or even swim by! Can you in clude 3D in a windows menu item??) one after the other so you can see which fish is in that slot.

01-14-2002, 11:46 AM	#49
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,938	Now thats a good idea! Have seven slots for the fish as empty holes. Drag and drop the fish you want, right into the hole. If you want an empty slot, drag in a "blank". Actually, User Interface Guidelines dictate that if you want a blank spot, you drag the item from that box and drop it somewhere it doesn't go, like outside the window. (I) If you want random fish, drag in the random image (an icon of several fish) and that would open a pop up menu for fine tuning (with the sliders) the random order of fish FOR THAT SLOT! Each slot could have a diferent possibility of random choices. I think this would be very complicated and non-intuitive to have each slot be variably configurable with different fish. This would be very confusing for most users and would not give us much more control than the 2nd prototype I designed. If you take another look at prototype #2, you'll see that you add the fish you always want, and then random question marks for the rest of the slots. Then on the Advanced panel, you determine with what frequency each fish should or should not go in the random slots. (II) Alternately, if you happen to drag MORE than on fish into a slot (say you just dragged a Yellow Tang into slot one, and then dragged a Clown Fish into the SAME slot) you would get an even amount of randomnes for that slot of each fish dragged into it. This would make it impossible to tell from a glance just what goes in each slot. According to user interface guidelines, dragging a fish twice into a slot should not double its likelyhood of appearing. The whole point of each spot is for the user to demand 1 certain fish ALWAYS APPEAR in that slot. Trying to commingle randomness with requested fish would make for a tech support nightmare @ SereneScreen. I hate to be dogmatic about anything, but what you suggest goes completely against user interface guidelines. And to show what fish is in that slot, the images would SCROLL by, (or even swim by one after the other so you can see which fish is in that slot.) I'm not sure what extra power this gives you over prototype #2, but it would make it very confusing for users. This would make it extremely non-intuitive because most users will try to drag another fish to a slot and expect it to REPLACE the old fish and become the only fish in that slot, not add another fish to a ONE FISH SLOT. Please look at prototype #2 again. Also, remember that in the version of the Aquarium with the 3D background, there will likely be 10 fish slots. Can you in clude 3D in a windows menu item??) Not easily. You don't work for Macromedia do you? "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

01-14-2002, 12:17 PM	#50
Socrates Sage Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: West Hills, CA Posts: 1,529	Did I ever post this? http://rmrcpa.com/lgk/fishdrop/fishdrop.htm It's an ActiveX compiled VisualBasic executable. It took all of about 1.5 hours to create (including figruing out how drag and drop works). I suppose you will probably need to have VB 5 runtimes on your PC but don't ask me where you get them, I don't mess with VB that much. You might get a security warning, I don't even know where to begin signing an activex control etc. Bat rays? We don't need no stinking bat rays!

01-16-2002, 03:56 PM	#51
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,938	Awesome. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

01-17-2002, 02:32 AM	#52
Shinsa Registered Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Fayetteville, NC Posts: 407	Just Thinking outside the box Morgan, I know all those ideas were very unconventional. I was just "thinking outside the box". But I think a simplified drag and drop would be best. Being able to visualize which fish is being added. And of course the sliders approach to randomizing works best in my opinion.

02-23-2002, 12:21 PM	#53
The_Thrill Nittany Lion Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: State College Posts: 49	Can anyone help me with loading this? I get a warning about prohibited becasue of Active X. I would really like to see this if i could. Thanks Thrill

02-23-2002, 01:13 PM	#54
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,938	The_Thrill, In order to run this, you have to go to Tools, Internet Options, Security tab, Custom Level buton at the bottom. Temporarily turn on all the ActiveX stuff. You can do Prompt or Enable, but not Disable. Once youre done with the settings panel above, put the settings back to what they were or other websites may be able to push a nasty script down to your computer. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

03-03-2002, 05:40 AM	#55
SimonFearby Registered Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 18	Spyder Said I really don't want to sound rude when I say this, but perhaps more people working on the aquarium will need to be in order if it is going to try to go for a big consumer base? Consumers are used to faster turn arounds for bug fixes and updates, and the more people who buy this wonderful screensaver, the larger the demand will be. This definately shouldn't sacrifice the quality of the aquarium, but more people might be needed than just 1 at this point forward... If I were Jim I would want the product to be the best it can be but getting more and more people in is not the answer. Jim is an artist, if you were creating a masterpiece would you like to hand over your successful work to others and hope it turns out how you expected? If you want to see my crappy masterpiece in the making goto http://www.fearby.com/products/3dfis...eenshots.shtml My 3d FishTank Screen Saver

03-03-2002, 11:25 AM	#56
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,774	It boils down to a popular saying in software development, "If a woman can deliver a baby in 9 months, then 9 women should be able to do the job in one month." When I first put the Aquarium on the market, I got a lot of calls from my friends at major software houses saying how much they liked it, and that they were assigning teams to do similar products. It's been 18 months, and by now we should be hip-deep in aquariums. I've never been able to work well in a group. Even in grade school, when asked to help with a class mural, I told the teacher, "Either I do the whole thing, or I don't want any part of it." Arrogant little twerp, wasn't I? Simon, you are one of only a half-dozen-or-so people in the world with first-hand knowlege of what it takes to do a project like this, so keep up the fire. I'll be among the first to buy your product when you get it done. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium Last edited by Jim Sachs; 03-03-2002 at 10:28 PM.

03-03-2002, 10:16 PM	#57
SimonFearby Registered Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 18	Jim you dont need to buy it, I would be honoured to give you a free lifetime version. As you know developing a fishtank on a computer is quite a challenge. People certainly look oddly at you for even trying to understand how a fish thinks. It is quite hard to explain to people why you don’t want to release the next version of a fishtank because the fish are not thinking properly or because the fish properties (variables) are not flexible enough to allow the fish to make a decision to go in to a ‘search for food mode’ based on their health, hunger or energy properties etc I would be happy to know what your biggest mistakes were in the development of your fishtank in the early stages (e.g trying to please everyone, spending to much time on stage xyz?) Thanks Jim My 3d FishTank Screen Saver

03-05-2002, 08:23 PM	#58
Lightfeather Occupation: Nerd Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: California Posts: 314	You know, Jim, I was the same way. I never wanted to work on murals with others either but only because I knew I had my own style and couldn't make it look like everyone else’s. I didn't want to "screw it up" so to speak. When I was forced to replicate Monet’s "lilies" with eight other classmates they relieved me of the burden only a week into it after having to go over my work more than once. Funny enough, I won two scholarships for my artwork that I did all on my own. ^_^ Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.