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Old 02-11-2003, 09:11 PM   #1
Fishguy007
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Wink Disappointed

Don't get me wrong - I think the aquarium is great...BUT...here's the feedback I submitted on their site:

Hi,

Although your screen saver is certainly top-notch - I am very disappointed in two things.

1) When I purchased the full deluxe package, the web site promised free unlimited upgrades of ALL future versions. Now it seems you are laying the ground work for adding charges by saying things like: "In the future we plan on adding more fish, and some exotic creatures at a slight additional charge" on your FAQ's page...if this comes to pass, and you charge registered deluxe users for upgrades, you will join the ranks of many of the other fraudulent web products.

2) The release of versions with earlier promises seem to have all but vanished. Different backgrounds, feeding the fish, etc are no longer talked about. These are some cool things hoped for when users purchased the original software, including me.

I love the aquarium, but it's a real shame you didn't follow through with many things previously advertised on your web site.

Thanks-
Dave
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Old 02-11-2003, 09:30 PM   #2
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I Agree with you to a degree in spirit, but I think if you look at the specific wording, if someone actually still has it all, there is lots of wiggle room as to what was a promise and what was a "hope".
Bat rays? We don't need no stinking bat rays!
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Old 02-11-2003, 09:58 PM   #3
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1) When I purchased the full deluxe package, the web site promised free unlimited upgrades of ALL future versions.
The word used, I believe, was "updates". Updates are different from upgrades.

I know this sounds like symantics, but Jim NEVER intended to give away 4 years of development effort for $20. I am sorry, but that it just an unrealistic expectation.

As has been stated in the FAQ, on the SereneScreen website, and here on the forum for the past ~2 years, the Aquarium includes free updates to solve bugs and various improvements. The "special creature" was a Lionfish. And the 3D background, feeding the fish, and tapping on the glass have long been described as part of the free upgrades.

Since at least March of 2001, things like Coral Shrimp, Octopus, Jellyfish, etc. have been described as extras.

Now it seems you are laying the ground work for adding charges by saying things like: "In the future we plan on adding more fish, and some exotic creatures at a slight additional charge" on your FAQ's page
This is nothing new. It has been stated in the FAQ and on the fan site since March 2001 and I believe it was clarified on SereneScreen.com mid-2001.

I am sorry but...if this comes to pass, and you charge registered deluxe users for upgrades, you will join the ranks of many of the other fraudulent web products.
Fraud is a charge Jim and I take very seriously. If you could please provide some documentation that states that every addition to the Aquarium would be included, then we would need to look into that immediately.

The price of the Aquarium has always been $20 (increased to $21.95 1+ year ago) for all future updates (bug fixes) to the Aquarium plus a special creature (the Lionfish) plus the 3D background.

2) The release of versions with earlier promises seem to have all but vanished.
The development of the Aquarium has gone silent, which is completely different than development ending. Far from it. Development on Jim's end of things did slow down for several months over Summer 2002 but Prolific spent that time working on state-of-the-art development tools which we will start to see the first fruits of over the next few months. I know it is frustrating, it was frustrating for me too, but I have seen some behind-the-scenes material and I can say that what they are working on is well worth it!
Different backgrounds, feeding the fish, etc are no longer talked about.
People have always asked for different backgrounds, having judged by looking at other screen savers that dropping in several flat bitmap backgrounds is easy. However SereneScreen Aquarium is headed towards having a fully-realized 3D background. This will take many months to produce. I am sorry if you heard somewhere that there would be a variety of backgrounds.

These are some cool things hoped for when users purchased the original software, including me.
2002 has been all about internal development. It has been painful to see no discernable progress on the Aquarium for 1 year, but after hearing about what's going on behind the scenes, I understand the time delay and think it was totally worth it.

The results of that work will be revealed throughout 2003. I suggest reading the chat logs from December 17th which talk about the progress of the Aquarium.

https://www.feldoncentral.com/Sachs/...sLogDec7R.html

And I hope you will stick around to see the future of the Aquarium. You won't need your checkbook until late 2003 or early 2004.
"Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell
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Last edited by feldon34; 02-11-2003 at 10:23 PM.
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Old 02-11-2003, 10:00 PM   #4
Jim Sachs
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Since Day1, I have always said that there will be free upgrades, and there will be upgrades that are charged for. When Prolific took over the business end and the SereneScreen website, they kept exactly the same policy. So far, all upgrades have been free. The 3D background upgrade, one of the hardest things ever attempted in the history of mankind , will be free. The new user interface will be free. All bug fixes will be free.

The Creature Packs, which will contain several exotic (and unbelievably difficult to create) creatures will not be free. The price has not been set yet, but I'm thinking around $9.95

As far as updates not being talked about, you're wrong. They are talked about all the time. Feeding the fish is planned for the 3D background version, as are several other perks.
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Old 02-11-2003, 10:26 PM   #5
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"Free upgrades" is a VERY dangerous term. If Microsoft put "Free Upgrades" on the box for Windows 95, I'd sue them back to the stone age until I got Windows 2000 for free.
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Old 02-11-2003, 10:48 PM   #6
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Dave,

We are all a little dissapointed with the slow down to the aquarium development, but amzingly, wonderful, super, great things come to those who wait patiently. (Thats how it goes, right? )

Please take the time to read through the thousands of posts and threads to learn more about what we can all expect in the future. Since my first day here, it was always said that the only thing I would have to pay more for would be the creature packs, and I willingly/knowingly accepted this.

If development ended now, our 20 bucks was well spent. As it is now, this product is still the best on the market. Take a look around and you will see for yourself.
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Old 02-12-2003, 03:14 AM   #7
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patscarr said:
If development ended now, our 20 bucks was well spent. As it is now, this product is still the best on the market. Take a look around and you will see for yourself.
Well said Patrick!
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Old 02-12-2003, 06:15 AM   #8
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Thanks for the replies

I appreciate all the replies - and like I said, I love the aquarium. But I was unaware of certain "upgrades" having a charge - thanks for explaining.

And yes, Feldon, the tapping on glass, and feeding the fish is specifically what I remember being talked about as "going to be free"....

So thanks all - and don't get the wrong impression - I just wanted to get some facts straight.

-Dave
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Old 02-12-2003, 07:10 AM   #9
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Dave,

I think the impression stemed from "Disappointed" instead of "what happend to these" or something similar. I see you also prefer shaken, not stirred. In any case, Welcome to the Forum.
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Old 02-13-2003, 01:21 PM   #10
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keep it in perspective

Although I look forward to future enhancements like everyone else, I think it's really important that people keep this in perspective. Version 1.1 is a quality piece of software, well worth the $21.95, even if it includes no upgrades at all. Name one other screen saver out there for that price that you would want to keep as your default screen saver for years on end. Almost all screen savers get quite boring after just a short while. The Aquarium does not. I've had it on my work PC for almost two years, and still get lots of questions from people like "where can I get that?".

There will be future free enhancements. Jim has promised that and he will deliver. Yes it's taking longer than expected. He has to have a life and and income too!

In the meantime, enjoy Version 1.1. It rocks!

Sometimes I think people spend too much energy pursuing what they don't have, then enjoying what they already have.

Just my $0.02.
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Old 02-14-2003, 01:02 AM   #11
SimonFearby
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Angry Release dates for features (Dec 17th Chat Log)

On the 17th of Dec 2002 Jim promised the release of these features (in order of release)

1) 3D background for saltwater tank
2) Creature Pak 1 for Saltwater
3) Butterfly habitat
4) 3D background for freshwater
5) Creature Pak for Freshwater
6) Creature Pak 2 for Saltwater
7) Terrarium
8) Aviary.


Q1) When can we expect the release date of the 3d background?

Q2) When can we expect the Fresh Water Tank?

Simon
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Old 02-14-2003, 01:07 AM   #12
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Promised?

I think Jim might have listed the things he wants to do if he does not die or go insane first.

Q1) When can we expect the release date of the 3d background?
SereneScreen does not publish release dates. As a result, no release dates are missed!

Q2) When can we expect the Fresh Water Tank?
When it's done.
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Old 02-14-2003, 01:17 AM   #13
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Release dates???

The freshwater aquarium was announced in April last year. Almost 1 year later no sign of progress?

Q1) What is the hold up?

Q2) Have any freshwater fish been created?

Q3) Has anything in the freshwater tank been done?

Cant Jim Copy the source code from the salt water tank, change the backgrounds, create the freshwater fish meshes and animate them. then add in soem freshwater stuff like plants etc and release that.

Q4) How long does it take Jim to make a fish mesh?

Q5) How long does it take Jim animate a fish mesh?

Is Jim rewriting the Freshwater tank in Direct X 8.1 or DX 9?

Simon
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Old 02-14-2003, 02:23 AM   #14
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No sign of progress isn't really not the same thing as no progress, you know...

A1) I'll leavwe this one for someone else to elaborate on.

A2) Yes (and before anybody starts asking where they are – No, there are no fish released).

A3) Yes

A3.5) That would be the correct description of creating the freshwater aquarium, yes.

A4) How long does it take to make a computer game? – You'd probaby answer "It depends on the game" – Well this is pretty much the same thing.

A5) See A4)

A5.5) Don't know.

/Tiny Q&A
Thanks to Morgan, Tiny Snapshots is up and running again with "Tiny Järvafält" as the latest addition – Go have a look and tell me what you think.

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I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says,
'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.'
I suppose we all thought that, one way or another.
" /Robert Oppenheimer on witnessing the first thermonuclear detonation in history.
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Old 02-14-2003, 02:53 AM   #15
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The freshwater aquarium was announced in April last year. Almost 1 year later no sign of progress?
Outward signs are different from internal truths.

Q1) What is the hold up?
I was not aware Jim was working on your release schedule.

Q2) Have any freshwater fish been created?
1 at last count.

Q3) Has anything in the freshwater tank been done?
I'll let Jim answer this.

Cant Jim Copy the source code from the salt water tank, change the backgrounds, create the freshwater fish meshes and animate them. then add in soem freshwater stuff like plants etc and release that.
First, Jim does not "throw things together". That is what the other ~30 aquarium screen saver developers are doing. Second, what you loosely describe is beind done, but properly.

Q4) How long does it take Jim to make a fish mesh?
2 weeks? a month? 2 months?
These are freshwater fish which have NEVER been done realistically in any computer program. To properly do them, they need multiple meshes with layers of transparency.

Q5) How long does it take Jim animate a fish mesh?
Right now, all the fish in the Saltwater Aquarium swim/animate the same way. Jim will tell you that even though this animation is better than the animation in the other ~30 aquarium screen savers out there, it is not correct and he is not satisfied with it. The fish really need to each swim with their own behavior according to how that fish species behaves in real-life.

Is Jim rewriting the Freshwater tank in Direct X 8.1 or DX 9?
No, because most people are running DirectX 7 and DirectX 8. The Aquarium still runs on cards for which there are no DirectX 8-compatible drivers.

Also rewriting the Aquarium in DirectX 8 code was done in 2001. After Jim spent 3 months doing this rewrite, Microsoft broke the screen saver libraries with a SEVERE bug that still has not been resolved in DirectX 9. So that 3 months of effort is totally wasted.
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Old 02-14-2003, 10:15 AM   #16
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What's the finish date for YOUR project, Simon? If anyone would know the pitfalls of software development, I would think it would be you.
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Old 02-14-2003, 10:57 AM   #17
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Since several of these questions relate to creating new fish, I can answer that one fairly quickly. If a fish uses the same movement algorithm as all the others (except the Lionfish), then it takes me one day to create it.

Actually distributing that fish to the users is where the problem comes in. Gone are the days when I could just create a fish, bump up the version number of the Aquarium, and post it on my own website for the fans to test. Nowadays, even the tiniest change has to be incorporated into over 25 versions of the Aquarium (regular English, widescreen English, Crystal Ford, Crystal Intel, Japanese widescreen, Clock, Mac OSX, Mac OS9, etc.etc.etc). Then it has to undergo days of QA testing for each version, then Prolific has to change many things on the SereneScreen website to cover all the bases (News, Download instructions, Customer Support, Q&A, etc.). Then 100,000 emails have to be sent to inform everyone on the mailing list of the new version. Then the website has to be braced up for an onslaught of several million downloads as all the users running the free version of the Aquarium descend on us. Then the CD manufacturing process has to be halted, and a new master has to be cut with the latest version, and stickers have to be made for the boxes which still have the old version informing the customers that they can download the new one. The stores will send back many copies since they will all want to display the new one. Extra Customer-service people will have to be hired to handle the increased load of questions about the new version.

So you can see why Prolific would want to wait until there are several major changes ready, as no one would want to go through all this more than once or twice a year.
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Old 02-14-2003, 11:36 AM   #18
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Jim,

So, now it takes a whole week instead of just one day, right? LOL just kidding, just kidding........
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Old 02-14-2003, 12:39 PM   #19
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If a fish uses the same movement algorithm as all the others (except the Lionfish), then it takes me one day to create it.
So, you should have all the freshwater fish done by now, right?
Patrick
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Old 02-14-2003, 12:48 PM   #20
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Jim Sachs wrote:

Since several of these questions relate to creating new fish, I can answer that one fairly quickly. If a fish uses the same movement algorithm as all the others (except the Lionfish), then it takes me one day to create it.

Actually distributing that fish to the users is where the problem comes in. Gone are the days when I could just create a fish, bump up the version number of the Aquarium, and post it on my own website for the fans to test. Nowadays, even the tiniest change has to be incorporated into over 25 versions of the Aquarium (regular English, widescreen English, Crystal Ford, Crystal Intel, Japanese widescreen, Clock, Mac OSX, Mac OS9, etc.etc.etc). Then it has to undergo days of QA testing for each version, then Prolific has to change many things on the SereneScreen website to cover all the bases (News, Download instructions, Customer Support, Q&A, etc.). Then 100,000 emails have to be sent to inform everyone on the mailing list of the new version. Then the website has to be braced up for an onslaught of several million downloads as all the users running the free version of the Aquarium descend on us.
I think I can now reveal on the forum one of the things Reichart has told me that Prolific has been working on. Right now, each download of the Aquarium is a complete file. If you want to add a fish, you have to post a new version of the Aquarium and we're talking mass chaos as a million people download 1MB.

As part of the new foundation that the Freshwater Aquarium and eventually the Saltwater Aquarium will be moved over to, the roadblocks to adding fish to the Aquarium will be mostly demolished!

Right now, the number of files the Aquarium installs on your computer is 1, "Aquarium.scr". Under the new foundation, this will increase to 2 files. The second file being the ~21 fish package that we are all currently familiar with. What this means is that without an entire new download, if Jim or another artist creates a fish or a series of fish, gets it approved by Jim, Reichart, etc. and QA tested, then that fish pack will be made available for download at SereneScreen.com.

Hopefully the Aquarium will ask the user once a month if they want to check SereneScreen.com to see if there are new fish or creatures available for free and/or purchase. This would prevent any need for 100,000 e-mails. And tech support issues should be minimal since the Aquarium ITSELF would handle downloading the fish pack and putting the file in the right place on your hard drive.

Already, the foundation has been laid to install new fish packs *while the Aquarium is still running* and they immediately become available in the fish selection panel.

I'm sure some people have been wondering how keycodes are going to be handled if there are some really complex premium fish like Mandarin Gobies and then of course the creature packs that will be available for sale. These will be in self-installing packs (each pack can contain 1 or many creatures/fish) that each respond to a different keycode. Once the user enters the keycode, it is added to the list of keycodes that installed Aquarium uses to try to authorize any fish packs found in the fish pack folder.

So if Jim creates 3-4 fish and puts a fish pack online, my dream of how it would work is, every copy of the Aquarium out there would eventually get around to asking the user if they want to check SereneScreen.com for new fish/creature packs which might be free or cost a bit extra. They are presented with a list of new fish and/or updates available at SereneScreen.com. They click "Download" and without further intervention, the fish are immediately installed. If it's a pay pack, they are brought to a brief purchase screen.

Then the CD manufacturing process has to be halted, and a new master has to be cut with the latest version, and stickers have to be made for the boxes which still have the old version informing the customers that they can download the new one.
I'm confused. This didn't affect the copies sent to Fry's. Anyway, I don't see anyone getting up in arms about Microsoft XP not putting stickers on the box every time there is a service pack or a crucial windows update avaialble for download. by the logic you mention, Microsoft would be forced to throw away all the boxes of XP out there and replace them with "Windows XP w/ Service Pack 1". But so far, Microsoft has never bothered to bundle a service pack in any version of the software they've sold. Even when it would be exceedingly prudent. Windows NT 4 *really* should be shipping with an SP6 CD tucked in there.

Extra Customer-service people will have to be hired to handle the increased load of questions about the new version.
Send em to me. I'll create an information page just for the fish packs.
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