VIRaptor

Lostboy · 04-11-2001, 03:38 PM

www.3dfiles.com/screensav...ptor.shtml

Check it out! I was impressed.

asprague · 04-11-2001, 04:55 PM

It ought to be impressive. It's at least ten times bigger than Jim's program. Not sure as to its actual size as I could not get it to download.

P.S. It did come down when I left the room for a while. Jim's program is 0.90MB. VIRaptor is 12.95MB.

Lostboy · 04-11-2001, 05:47 PM

Yeah, I think the program should be smaller in size, as there's not much to it. The background is a simple still photo, the sounds aren't anything special, and the only thing that's animated is a couple of birds. However the outcome does look nice, none-the-less.

feldon34 · 04-11-2001, 06:08 PM

Some amazing features of this VIRaptor (guessing it's a Falcon?) screen saver:

It is 12.3 Megabytes installed

It took 10 years to write and has been beta-testing for 2 years.

Given the professed amount of development time, the registered version is, what should be, a very reasonable $10.

I hate to be a cynic, but when people start by bragging how many years they've been developing something and then fail to deliver the goods, it just makes it worse on themselves. Now granted, I was only able to test out the demo. The final version is supposed to have "flight" controls so maybe my enjoyment would be increased significantly with the registered version.

That said, let's go into what I tested. The demo version has a fixed camera that spins around endlessly, following the location of the bird. 90% of the time, the bird is very far from the camera and is but a few pixels in size, even when run at 1024x768 with 16-bit color.

More surprising, was the complete lack of realism in the bird's movement. It was never affected by updrafts or downdrafts and never did anything other than flap its plasticy wings up and down. There was clearly no skeletal structure at work. It just boggles the mind that there are 10 years of effort in this thing. You never got to see the face of the bird or any kind of closeup except once or twice in 5 minutes of watching. The closeup revealed that the texture of the bird was hand-made, not photographed, and showed very little detail.

There are good screen snapshots here:

www.qflux.net/screen33.html

The majority of the time that you are watching the demo, you are looking up at the solid blue sky (no clouds at all) and seeing the black, silhouetted underside of the bird.

Inexplicably, the wooden platform you are standing on is more detailed than the bird.

The only explanation I can think of for why VIRaptor consumes 12.3MB of hard drive space is possibyl the 360 degree background panoramic photograph. Indeed, this must be a high-resolution texture because if the bird is close to the camera and much of the background and wooden platform are in view, the framerate drops from a smooth 60fps to an ugly 12-15fps of choppiness.

I don't bear bad wishes towards anyone, and the price of the screen saver is pretty reasonable at $10, a steal if these guys have really been working on it for 10 years. But I think VIRaptor will have some pretty tough competition when Jim gets rolling on Sachs Aviary (Bird Sanctuary) a few years from now.

I think the movement of the fish in Sachs Aquarium are already more realistic than VIRaptor's bird movements and Jim says the Aquarium physics model is but a draft of the final and he has much more detail planned.

Jim Sachs · 04-11-2001, 11:19 PM

The download is way too big for my modem to handle, but the screenshots look great. Hopefully, DSL will be available in my area in a year or so.

Shinsa · 04-12-2001, 12:00 AM

Hey, not [too] bad... but 10 years of research? Uh... don't buy any of their stock!

But it does look good. Not realistic at all though. Just like Feldon said, the movement is plastic. Looks like a couple of mechanical birds.

This version does allow zoom in/out too see the birds.

And the frame rate is doing well too. At 1280x1024x16 the FPS was varying from 60-120. Mostly smooth, but ocassionaly jittery, regardless of the FPS.

If the birds looked as good as Jims fish, I'd pay for this one too. But, I really don't think its worth $1. Sorry. Over all it looks like a high school computer science project.

Sharkbait · 04-12-2001, 01:11 AM

If you can believe the hype.

"The VIM is a model of human brain function, which is used to drive a 3D character who lives in a virtual world. The Virtual Intelligence that you see exploring the world is so named to distinguish it from "artificial" intelligence algorithms. Rather than trying to imitate brain function, the VIM is designed to actually replicate it. At the heart of the VIM is the Quantum Flux Engine, which works in an analog rather than a digital manner to create the richness of behavior exhibited by the VIM. With sensory input from the VI's visual field, and a limbic system which develops likes and dislikes for what is seen, the VI will acquire different behavior patterns with time. We hope you enjoy watching this life form evolve, and maybe decide yourself whether it is an "artificial" person or simply a "virtual" person."

www.qflux.net

I do like the concept even if the execution leaves a lot to be desired. If their code can help blur the line between fantasy and reality I'm all for it.

hpman77 · 04-12-2001, 09:56 AM

I have their Vim3.3 screensaver, with the first model of a neural brain. That program simulates day/night cycles, and the creature (a nice girl) is always searching around that 3d world (although no shadows makes the effect a little weird) looking for seeds. Then, the creature finds places she like, and if she have seeds collected, she starts making a garden with those seeds. In fact, it's an interesting program, although the thing that impresses ppl is the visual thing, and not all the operations running inside it

and that need a bit more of work

Anyway, if you can, try the VIM instead of that falcon thingie.

feldon34 · 04-12-2001, 11:11 AM

I looked at VIM and although it's more impressive, I have the same feelings. The environment is *ok* but nothing really special. The water is cool, the mountains/hills are good but not spectacular.

The girl is detailed, especially her legs, but overall, I was shocked that she is composed of about 15 different objects, each with a few dozen polygons. This makes it look very unrealistic as there are seams between every one of these objects. I could understand 3D architecture like this years ago, but these days, a single model with bones and other control points inside it so you have flexing textures is just expected.

It's supposed to be a "brain simulator" but all she does is take a few very robotic steps and then stop. Then she takes a few more steps. She never breaks into a run, sits down, really takes a look around, walks up to a tree and leans next to it, never steps into the water up to her ankles and enjoys the water.

Maybe if I watched it longer I would be impressed.

The bunny isn't very realistic either.

Jim, set your modem to download overnight. The bird thing is about 8 megs compressed, so a little less than an hour. And the woman is only about 5 megs. (perplexingly, both screen savers are 12.4mb uncompressed)

05-08-2001, 07:27 PM

Wish I saw this thread when it came out! Thanks to the folks who checked out VIRaptor and the VIM...and for the comments here, all feedback is appreciated. If some of you are still interested, some quick replies...The 10 years of development is for the model of how information is processed in the brain (I'm a neuroscientist currently at UCSD)...VI Raptor was just a first test of the new DX8 vertex shaders. As far as the realism goes, it is more the behavior that I focus on - how the birds decide what to do and how they interact with each other, rather than the flight model. The large file size was mainly in response to feedback on my site that people would prefer a longer download for the nicer textures. I might release a much smaller "Lite" version, with very compressed textures, but make them user-editable so people who like to work with bitmaps and skins can install their own bird skin and landscape.

Anyway thanks again for the comments, and to Jim and Morgan for the board,

Michael Colicos
Quantum Flux

05-08-2001, 08:40 PM

Hey, its great to see the creator post on this board. That would be great if you made a Lite version. It'd be really cool to make some skins, too bad we can't do it with the Aquarium! J/k Jim... I know its because you want it to be artistic and you don't want people saying "Aren't you the guy with the aquarium w/ bright pink fish in it" blah blah blah

Great work, and I look forward to seeing that Lite version...

Digital Lungfish · 05-08-2001, 11:48 PM

I think Jim is far more concerned with exploding fish or fish that look like half dead corpses with flesh hanging off them, etc.

- DL

05-10-2001, 12:16 AM

What I don't understand is the fact that you'd have to download these skins seperately, and you'd know that they aren't included with the normal screensaver, and you should be able to conclude that it is made by a third party (not all people, but most) So only people that know the skins exist, and know how to use them, would see them, and the people that would ask stupid questions or give a bad reputation wouldn't even know that there were additional skins. While us smarter people could enjoy some other options and expandability. Just my .02 I know I'll get shot down instantly by someone... but thats just my quick little opinion.

04-11-2001, 03:38 PM	#1
Lostboy SquirrelFish Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 206	VIRaptor www.3dfiles.com/screensav...ptor.shtml Check it out! I was impressed.

04-11-2001, 04:55 PM	#2
asprague Regal Angel Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 80	Re: VIRaptor It ought to be impressive. It's at least ten times bigger than Jim's program. Not sure as to its actual size as I could not get it to download. P.S. It did come down when I left the room for a while. Jim's program is 0.90MB. VIRaptor is 12.95MB.

04-11-2001, 05:47 PM	#3
Lostboy SquirrelFish Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 206	Re: VIRaptor Yeah, I think the program should be smaller in size, as there's not much to it. The background is a simple still photo, the sounds aren't anything special, and the only thing that's animated is a couple of birds. However the outcome does look nice, none-the-less.

04-11-2001, 06:08 PM	#4
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	Re: VIRaptor Some amazing features of this VIRaptor (guessing it's a Falcon?) screen saver: It is 12.3 Megabytes installed It took 10 years to write and has been beta-testing for 2 years. Given the professed amount of development time, the registered version is, what should be, a very reasonable $10. I hate to be a cynic, but when people start by bragging how many years they've been developing something and then fail to deliver the goods, it just makes it worse on themselves. Now granted, I was only able to test out the demo. The final version is supposed to have "flight" controls so maybe my enjoyment would be increased significantly with the registered version. That said, let's go into what I tested. The demo version has a fixed camera that spins around endlessly, following the location of the bird. 90% of the time, the bird is very far from the camera and is but a few pixels in size, even when run at 1024x768 with 16-bit color. More surprising, was the complete lack of realism in the bird's movement. It was never affected by updrafts or downdrafts and never did anything other than flap its plasticy wings up and down. There was clearly no skeletal structure at work. It just boggles the mind that there are 10 years of effort in this thing. You never got to see the face of the bird or any kind of closeup except once or twice in 5 minutes of watching. The closeup revealed that the texture of the bird was hand-made, not photographed, and showed very little detail. There are good screen snapshots here: www.qflux.net/screen33.html The majority of the time that you are watching the demo, you are looking up at the solid blue sky (no clouds at all) and seeing the black, silhouetted underside of the bird. Inexplicably, the wooden platform you are standing on is more detailed than the bird. The only explanation I can think of for why VIRaptor consumes 12.3MB of hard drive space is possibyl the 360 degree background panoramic photograph. Indeed, this must be a high-resolution texture because if the bird is close to the camera and much of the background and wooden platform are in view, the framerate drops from a smooth 60fps to an ugly 12-15fps of choppiness. I don't bear bad wishes towards anyone, and the price of the screen saver is pretty reasonable at $10, a steal if these guys have really been working on it for 10 years. But I think VIRaptor will have some pretty tough competition when Jim gets rolling on Sachs Aviary (Bird Sanctuary) a few years from now. I think the movement of the fish in Sachs Aquarium are already more realistic than VIRaptor's bird movements and Jim says the Aquarium physics model is but a draft of the final and he has much more detail planned. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

04-11-2001, 11:19 PM	#5
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,791	Re: VIRaptor The download is way too big for my modem to handle, but the screenshots look great. Hopefully, DSL will be available in my area in a year or so. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

04-12-2001, 12:00 AM	#6
Shinsa Registered Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Fayetteville, NC Posts: 407	Re: VIRaptor Hey, not [too] bad... but 10 years of research? Uh... don't buy any of their stock! But it does look good. Not realistic at all though. Just like Feldon said, the movement is plastic. Looks like a couple of mechanical birds. This version does allow zoom in/out too see the birds. And the frame rate is doing well too. At 1280x1024x16 the FPS was varying from 60-120. Mostly smooth, but ocassionaly jittery, regardless of the FPS. If the birds looked as good as Jims fish, I'd pay for this one too. But, I really don't think its worth $1. Sorry. Over all it looks like a high school computer science project. Bob "When you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." _______________________________________________

04-12-2001, 01:11 AM	#7
Sharkbait Registered Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: California Posts: 6	Re: VIRaptor If you can believe the hype. "The VIM is a model of human brain function, which is used to drive a 3D character who lives in a virtual world. The Virtual Intelligence that you see exploring the world is so named to distinguish it from "artificial" intelligence algorithms. Rather than trying to imitate brain function, the VIM is designed to actually replicate it. At the heart of the VIM is the Quantum Flux Engine, which works in an analog rather than a digital manner to create the richness of behavior exhibited by the VIM. With sensory input from the VI's visual field, and a limbic system which develops likes and dislikes for what is seen, the VI will acquire different behavior patterns with time. We hope you enjoy watching this life form evolve, and maybe decide yourself whether it is an "artificial" person or simply a "virtual" person." www.qflux.net I do like the concept even if the execution leaves a lot to be desired. If their code can help blur the line between fantasy and reality I'm all for it.

04-12-2001, 09:56 AM	#8
hpman77 Blue Angel Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Santander (Spain) Posts: 285	Re: VIRaptor I have their Vim3.3 screensaver, with the first model of a neural brain. That program simulates day/night cycles, and the creature (a nice girl) is always searching around that 3d world (although no shadows makes the effect a little weird) looking for seeds. Then, the creature finds places she like, and if she have seeds collected, she starts making a garden with those seeds. In fact, it's an interesting program, although the thing that impresses ppl is the visual thing, and not all the operations running inside it and that need a bit more of work Anyway, if you can, try the VIM instead of that falcon thingie. .:: AMD Athlon XP 1700+ :: 512MB SDRAM :: Windows XP SP1 :: shappire ATI radeon 9600 PRO :: Soundblaster Live Player 5.1 :: Directx 9.0 :: (Always latest drivers for everything) ::.

04-12-2001, 11:11 AM	#9
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	Re: VIRaptor I looked at VIM and although it's more impressive, I have the same feelings. The environment is ok but nothing really special. The water is cool, the mountains/hills are good but not spectacular. The girl is detailed, especially her legs, but overall, I was shocked that she is composed of about 15 different objects, each with a few dozen polygons. This makes it look very unrealistic as there are seams between every one of these objects. I could understand 3D architecture like this years ago, but these days, a single model with bones and other control points inside it so you have flexing textures is just expected. It's supposed to be a "brain simulator" but all she does is take a few very robotic steps and then stop. Then she takes a few more steps. She never breaks into a run, sits down, really takes a look around, walks up to a tree and leans next to it, never steps into the water up to her ankles and enjoys the water. Maybe if I watched it longer I would be impressed. The bunny isn't very realistic either. Jim, set your modem to download overnight. The bird thing is about 8 megs compressed, so a little less than an hour. And the woman is only about 5 megs. (perplexingly, both screen savers are 12.4mb uncompressed) "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

05-08-2001, 07:27 PM	#10
Guest Posts: n/a	VIRaptor Wish I saw this thread when it came out! Thanks to the folks who checked out VIRaptor and the VIM...and for the comments here, all feedback is appreciated. If some of you are still interested, some quick replies...The 10 years of development is for the model of how information is processed in the brain (I'm a neuroscientist currently at UCSD)...VI Raptor was just a first test of the new DX8 vertex shaders. As far as the realism goes, it is more the behavior that I focus on - how the birds decide what to do and how they interact with each other, rather than the flight model. The large file size was mainly in response to feedback on my site that people would prefer a longer download for the nicer textures. I might release a much smaller "Lite" version, with very compressed textures, but make them user-editable so people who like to work with bitmaps and skins can install their own bird skin and landscape. Anyway thanks again for the comments, and to Jim and Morgan for the board, Michael Colicos Quantum Flux

05-08-2001, 08:40 PM	#11
Guest Posts: n/a	hey Hey, its great to see the creator post on this board. That would be great if you made a Lite version. It'd be really cool to make some skins, too bad we can't do it with the Aquarium! J/k Jim... I know its because you want it to be artistic and you don't want people saying "Aren't you the guy with the aquarium w/ bright pink fish in it" blah blah blah Great work, and I look forward to seeing that Lite version...

05-08-2001, 11:48 PM	#12
Digital Lungfish Obey the toad! Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Diego, California Posts: 2,557	Re: hey I think Jim is far more concerned with exploding fish or fish that look like half dead corpses with flesh hanging off them, etc. - DL Steve www.tron-sector.com - www.badcartridge.com - www.classicgaming.com - www.dinofish.com Today is the tomorrow you were worried about yesterday...

05-10-2001, 12:16 AM	#13
Guest Posts: n/a	skins What I don't understand is the fact that you'd have to download these skins seperately, and you'd know that they aren't included with the normal screensaver, and you should be able to conclude that it is made by a third party (not all people, but most) So only people that know the skins exist, and know how to use them, would see them, and the people that would ask stupid questions or give a bad reputation wouldn't even know that there were additional skins. While us smarter people could enjoy some other options and expandability. Just my .02 I know I'll get shot down instantly by someone... but thats just my quick little opinion.