any word of the update on the site

richard32 · 01-03-2002, 12:18 PM

Is there any word of the update for download yet as it was ment to be coming soon thanks richard from uk

feldon34 · 01-03-2002, 12:36 PM

When something new comes out, you'll see it on my website and here on the forum almost immediately.

I will also send out a mass e-mail to everyone here on the forum.

Ricordia · 01-05-2002, 01:35 PM

I hate for my first message on this forum to be a complaint, and I really love this program, but why is it taking so long to get version 1.0 on the web site? Can we get an update from one of the people responsible?? I do web developement for a living, I *know* it doesn't take this long. = (

Socrates · 01-05-2002, 02:38 PM

I am starting to feel a little jipped myself.

Could prolific be "holding out" on us for some other reason (like they have no financial incentive to release a free udate to version 1.0)?

feldon34 · 01-05-2002, 02:58 PM

1.0 has been in development since early August(!). It adds a longer keycode, an installer, and better password protection on Windows 95/98/ME. That's it! 1.0 has been handled entirely by Prolific.

Jim has been acting independantly, working on the 3D background, a version of the Aquarium for NEC Corporation, an update to the Computrainer software, and most recently the Lionfish.

(update)
The Lionfish will be released in version 1.1. Only people who had 99L before 1.0 comes out will be able to get 1.1.

If you buy 1.0, you can activate the Lionfish for a few bucks.

Socrates · 01-06-2002, 01:18 AM

Not to be rude.

But functional security is NOT a minor issue. It's a major one. IF it was a free SS it wouldn't be. But it's not.

Jim Sachs · 01-06-2002, 01:40 AM

Security might be a major consideration for a program that was conceived as a screensaver, but the Aquarium was conceived and executed as a pedal-to-the-metal 3D simulation of living things. Using it as a screensaver was an afterthought.

Socrates · 01-06-2002, 11:00 AM

Not to be rude again.

But Jim, I paid for a screen saver. Whether it was an after thought or whatever doesn't really matter since it was sold that way. There is the business factor there. If it said it would not be compatible with normalk screen saver security I wouldn't expect it it, but it didn't.

The security has already been taken care of by you as Feldon already said. I have never had any problem with the order or speed with which you have developed the software, and I thought it was FANTASTIC that you made apoint out of fixing the password problem in the 1.0 version. I have no problem with the SS itself or having to wait for a non-beta to get full security. But now that it exists and my "check has been cashed" as it were I'm just jonsing to get what I paid for from Prolific who has had it in their posession for a while now.

feldon34 · 01-06-2002, 11:39 AM

Actually, Jim handed 99L to Prolific so hopefully they would make several changes:

Dual monitor support (if possible with DirectX 6)
Non-primary display support Voodoo 1+2
Fix password protection on Windows 95/98/ME
Compress the audio with ADPCM (like it was in 99D-99K) but make it work with DirectSound and the volume bar
New keycode

In August, they started with the 3 changes I've listed in prior posts: new keycodes, fixed password protection on 95/98/ME, and an Installer.

Jim said a couple of weeks ago that the only thing holding up the release of 1.1 was delays in the customer database so 99L people can get their new 1.1 keycode and download version 1.1.

Update: Will Ware has also successfully gotten AD/PCM audio compression working with DirectSound, so version 1.1 will be approximately 760kb compressed! The audio takes about 80kb instead of 500kb.

Actually there's one more thing before 1.1 goes on the website, the web version of the Installer has some beta testing to do this week. Hopefully once that's over, it will be on the web pronto.

Jim and Prolific have an interesting relationship. Jim really doesn't want to deal with all the gritty details, advertising, distribution, the really tough programming bits (Settings, DirectX compatibility, Registry code, Installers, etc.), etc. And I don't blame him. But it looks like things have gotten out of hand.

Jim Sachs · 01-06-2002, 12:04 PM

Socrates -

If you bought the Aquarium as a program to blank out the screen and move pixels around to prevent burn-in, then you probably overpaid. There are thousands of actual screensavers available on the Internet, and most are free. If you were under the impression that the Aquarium fell into this category, then I will authorize Prolific to give you a refund and remove you from the database.

The vast majority of my customers appreciate the Aquarium as the only program available for PCs, at any price, that realistically simulates a living thing. To call it a screensaver is an insult.

Now excuse me while I phone Apple and try to get a refund on my PowerMac. I use it as a doorstop, but it's really too big and overpriced to be effective.

feldon34 · 01-06-2002, 12:35 PM

itecrn · 01-06-2002, 12:51 PM

A question: I've purchased the deluxe version a few months ago, and I'm in the customer database. The only problem is that I now have a different email address than i registered with. How do i get this info updated?

Jim Sachs · 01-06-2002, 12:57 PM

Just send an email to Steve or Vic at Service@serenescreen.com and they will update your address.

Socrates · 01-06-2002, 02:52 PM

Jim.

You are overreactinag and putting words in my mouth.

I bought the Screen Saver BECAUSE it is the greatest simulation of ANYTHING that I have seen anywhere.

The thing is that I ALSO bought it because it was eventually going to be a fully functional Windows Screen Saver. I am not worried about burn in, that's not even an issue really anyway.

I just have a security issue at my house (soon to be ex-wife broke in once and ransacked the place, tried to access the network here). I want to be able to have the Aquarium running whenever I am not sitting at the machine so that it can be my "aquarium" in my living room. When people come over, the fish look better than anything else on my PC.

But the problem right now is just one of convenience. If I am home, and I want to run it while I am puttering around here or have guests, I have to go and turn off my screen saver, etc. etc. to do so.

My ONLY frustration is that a working password protection already exists, and I can't have it yet. What's wrong with me wanting the feature. How is me actually wanting to USE the greatest Sim ever (that I payed for) an insult of any kind????

My frustration IS NOT with Jim Sachs, or the board, or the quality or anything like that. It's just a simple issue of plain old impatient frustration...

I don't want a refund. I will wait, as I have donw since first purchasing my key. My original post is simply a prodding nudge at Prolific who really seems to be dragging their feet. If they aren't, then all they have to do is post something somewhere that says, "xyz is a problem, we're sorry and we're hurrying" and all will be well, and I'll say, "OK, I was too impatient".

I am sorry that you feel insulted.

Jim Sachs · 01-06-2002, 03:21 PM

Sorry, Socrates. You're right - I overreacted.

The list of requirements to make a program function as a screensaver in all versions of Windows on all systems appears to be infinite. That's if such a list actually existed. Microsoft is very secretive about it. I've wasted about half the development time of the Aquarium just chasing down obscure Windows functions. I'm feeling the crush of age and I still want my tombstone to read "Created The Best Movie Ever Made", not "Got Passwords Working in Some Obscure Screensaver".

Socrates · 01-06-2002, 04:28 PM

I understand the frustration with MS.

That's an all to common story.

My favorite was trying to learn Visual Basic and looking at their ridiculous all-encompassing examples and then copying them over exactly and finding they had MISTAKES in them! Often I had to learn what the example was trying to teach in order to FIX the example.

Anyway. My point is this. I never demanded a password feature. I did mention it during the earlier versions, and it was stated it would get fixed, and I have never whined about it not being there. Just whined about it not getting delivered, and waited a month to do it ( a looong time for me

Now it has. That is great. I am also glad that it was Prolific who did the fix according to Feldon. And Kudos to them for doing that. Now I just want to give them Kudos for putting the fix in my hands. That's all nothing more.

PS. I am glad you are working on more of the artistic side and that Prolific is doing the technical minutia (regardless of speed). This means that I will get to buy bonus creatures at a much higher pace

Ricordia · 01-06-2002, 04:33 PM

    I was under the impression that the only thing holding up 1.0 for us beta testers was in coding the website to handle the transfer of the new reg codes. This, in and of itself, is a trivial process. Has 1.0 <B><I>not</I></B> been shipped out to retail stores, as has been stated? If it has, why can't we get that version? Why are we forced to wait for version1.1?

Ricordia

feldon34 · 01-06-2002, 05:10 PM

This, in and of itself, is a trivial process. Has 1.0 not been shipped out to retail stores, as has been stated? If it has, why can't we get that version?

Sorry, let me clarify (And I'll edit my original post too)!

Version 1.0 itself has been complete and virtually bug-free since the first week of November. The installer created at that time was 4 megabytes and a real hog. 1.0 and that installer is what you'll find on the boxed version of the Aquarium (which has appeared in no retail stores or online catalogs that I'm aware of).

What's being beta-tested this week is the new slimmed down 350kb installer. Yes, it sounds trivial, but not only is the web hosting bill for SereneScreen.com a fortune right now, but Jim expects a higher standard of himself and of the Aquarium than others seem to expect of their own software.

Example A: Iomega software for their ZIP drive. For the longest time, it was 12 megabytes. Now it's available in a "easier download" 5 megabyte package. The only important files for using a ZIP drive in there are about 800kb!

Jim is disappointed enough that 99L grew 500kb because Microsoft refuses to provide him with information on how to use ADPCM compressed sound under DirectX's DirectSound (required to add the volume bar). He doesn't want a 3 mb installer for a 700kb program!

There is one final pressing need for a 1.0 installer of some sort. Every single Windows 2000 and XP customer has trouble with the 99L installer because it tries to put the Aquarium in a location that only exists on Windows 95, 98, and ME.

So I'm hopeful that sometime this week, 1.0 and the petite installer will be signed off and ready to go on the website.

Jim Sachs · 01-06-2002, 05:27 PM

The CD version has no Key Code. The CD itself is the Key.

The website coding is not trivial. A parsing algorithm has to be created that does this:

Assume the typical user writes in, "Hi, I need a new Key Code. My name is Bill Smith, but I may have registered as Mary Smith because I was using my wife's credit card. We're divorced now, so I don't have her card number handy. Seems like it ended with 4053. I think it was last April (the registration, not the divorce). The Key Code was MSMI-something. I live in Salem, Oregon, now, but may have put down an address for a trailer park in Florida which we were staying in."

The algorithm goes through the database (plus many thousands of email messages) to try to verify if the customer is legitimate, then generate and issue him a new Key. If you consider this coding trivial, then I'm certain you have a great future as a programmer.

Also, Prolific is probably going to wait for me to finish the Lionfish, so that v1.0 will contain it, instead of having everyone download a new version the next day.

pipeta · 01-07-2002, 03:05 AM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs
Assume the typical user writes in, "Hi, I need a new Key Code. My name is Bill Smith, but I may have registered as Mary Smith because I was using my wife's credit card. We're divorced now, so I don't have her card number handy. Seems like it ended with 4053. I think it was last April (the registration, not the divorce). The Key Code was MSMI-something. I live in Salem, Oregon, now, but may have put down an address for a trailer park in Florida which we were staying in."

The algorithm goes through the database (plus many thousands of email messages) to try to verify if the customer is legitimate, then generate and issue him a new Key.

I don't think you have to leave this work for an algorithm, you have e-mail suport

I know you weren't serious about that

01-03-2002, 12:18 PM	#1
richard32 HALLOWEEN FAN Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: uppingham rutland England Posts: 19	any word of the update on the site Is there any word of the update for download yet as it was ment to be coming soon thanks richard from uk

01-03-2002, 12:36 PM	#2
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,938	When something new comes out, you'll see it on my website and here on the forum almost immediately. I will also send out a mass e-mail to everyone here on the forum. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman Last edited by feldon34; 01-03-2002 at 12:39 PM.

01-05-2002, 02:38 PM	#4
Socrates Sage Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: West Hills, CA Posts: 1,529	I am starting to feel a little jipped myself. Could prolific be "holding out" on us for some other reason (like they have no financial incentive to release a free udate to version 1.0)? Bat rays? We don't need no stinking bat rays!

01-05-2002, 02:58 PM	#5
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,938	1.0 has been in development since early August(!). It adds a longer keycode, an installer, and better password protection on Windows 95/98/ME. That's it! 1.0 has been handled entirely by Prolific. Jim has been acting independantly, working on the 3D background, a version of the Aquarium for NEC Corporation, an update to the Computrainer software, and most recently the Lionfish. (update) The Lionfish will be released in version 1.1. Only people who had 99L before 1.0 comes out will be able to get 1.1. If you buy 1.0, you can activate the Lionfish for a few bucks. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman Last edited by feldon34; 01-12-2002 at 03:05 PM.

01-06-2002, 01:18 AM	#6
Socrates Sage Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: West Hills, CA Posts: 1,529	Not to be rude. But functional security is NOT a minor issue. It's a major one. IF it was a free SS it wouldn't be. But it's not. Bat rays? We don't need no stinking bat rays!

01-05-2002, 01:35 PM	#3
Ricordia Reef Keeper Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Utah Posts: 17	I hate for my first message on this forum to be a complaint, and I really love this program, but why is it taking so long to get version 1.0 on the web site? Can we get an update from one of the people responsible?? I do web developement for a living, I know it doesn't take this long. = (

01-06-2002, 01:40 AM	#7
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,776	Security might be a major consideration for a program that was conceived as a screensaver, but the Aquarium was conceived and executed as a pedal-to-the-metal 3D simulation of living things. Using it as a screensaver was an afterthought. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

01-06-2002, 11:00 AM	#8
Socrates Sage Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: West Hills, CA Posts: 1,529	Not to be rude again. But Jim, I paid for a screen saver. Whether it was an after thought or whatever doesn't really matter since it was sold that way. There is the business factor there. If it said it would not be compatible with normalk screen saver security I wouldn't expect it it, but it didn't. The security has already been taken care of by you as Feldon already said. I have never had any problem with the order or speed with which you have developed the software, and I thought it was FANTASTIC that you made apoint out of fixing the password problem in the 1.0 version. I have no problem with the SS itself or having to wait for a non-beta to get full security. But now that it exists and my "check has been cashed" as it were I'm just jonsing to get what I paid for from Prolific who has had it in their posession for a while now. Bat rays? We don't need no stinking bat rays!

01-06-2002, 11:39 AM	#9
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,938	Actually, Jim handed 99L to Prolific so hopefully they would make several changes: Dual monitor support (if possible with DirectX 6) Non-primary display support Voodoo 1+2 Fix password protection on Windows 95/98/ME Compress the audio with ADPCM (like it was in 99D-99K) but make it work with DirectSound and the volume bar New keycode In August, they started with the 3 changes I've listed in prior posts: new keycodes, fixed password protection on 95/98/ME, and an Installer. Jim said a couple of weeks ago that the only thing holding up the release of 1.1 was delays in the customer database so 99L people can get their new 1.1 keycode and download version 1.1. Update: Will Ware has also successfully gotten AD/PCM audio compression working with DirectSound, so version 1.1 will be approximately 760kb compressed! The audio takes about 80kb instead of 500kb. Actually there's one more thing before 1.1 goes on the website, the web version of the Installer has some beta testing to do this week. Hopefully once that's over, it will be on the web pronto. Jim and Prolific have an interesting relationship. Jim really doesn't want to deal with all the gritty details, advertising, distribution, the really tough programming bits (Settings, DirectX compatibility, Registry code, Installers, etc.), etc. And I don't blame him. But it looks like things have gotten out of hand. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman Last edited by feldon34; 01-12-2002 at 03:06 PM.

01-06-2002, 12:04 PM	#10
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,776	Socrates - If you bought the Aquarium as a program to blank out the screen and move pixels around to prevent burn-in, then you probably overpaid. There are thousands of actual screensavers available on the Internet, and most are free. If you were under the impression that the Aquarium fell into this category, then I will authorize Prolific to give you a refund and remove you from the database. The vast majority of my customers appreciate the Aquarium as the only program available for PCs, at any price, that realistically simulates a living thing. To call it a screensaver is an insult. Now excuse me while I phone Apple and try to get a refund on my PowerMac. I use it as a doorstop, but it's really too big and overpriced to be effective. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

01-06-2002, 12:35 PM	#11
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,938	<img src="https://www.feldoncentral.com/forums/smilies/eek5.gif"><img src="https://www.feldoncentral.com/forums/smilies/uhoh.gif"> "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

01-06-2002, 12:51 PM	#12
itecrn Registered Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: California Posts: 2	A question: I've purchased the deluxe version a few months ago, and I'm in the customer database. The only problem is that I now have a different email address than i registered with. How do i get this info updated?

01-06-2002, 12:57 PM	#13
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,776	Just send an email to Steve or Vic at Service@serenescreen.com and they will update your address. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

01-06-2002, 02:52 PM	#14
Socrates Sage Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: West Hills, CA Posts: 1,529	Jim. You are overreactinag and putting words in my mouth. I bought the Screen Saver BECAUSE it is the greatest simulation of ANYTHING that I have seen anywhere. The thing is that I ALSO bought it because it was eventually going to be a fully functional Windows Screen Saver. I am not worried about burn in, that's not even an issue really anyway. I just have a security issue at my house (soon to be ex-wife broke in once and ransacked the place, tried to access the network here). I want to be able to have the Aquarium running whenever I am not sitting at the machine so that it can be my "aquarium" in my living room. When people come over, the fish look better than anything else on my PC. But the problem right now is just one of convenience. If I am home, and I want to run it while I am puttering around here or have guests, I have to go and turn off my screen saver, etc. etc. to do so. My ONLY frustration is that a working password protection already exists, and I can't have it yet. What's wrong with me wanting the feature. How is me actually wanting to USE the greatest Sim ever (that I payed for) an insult of any kind???? My frustration IS NOT with Jim Sachs, or the board, or the quality or anything like that. It's just a simple issue of plain old impatient frustration... I don't want a refund. I will wait, as I have donw since first purchasing my key. My original post is simply a prodding nudge at Prolific who really seems to be dragging their feet. If they aren't, then all they have to do is post something somewhere that says, "xyz is a problem, we're sorry and we're hurrying" and all will be well, and I'll say, "OK, I was too impatient". I am sorry that you feel insulted. Bat rays? We don't need no stinking bat rays!

01-06-2002, 03:21 PM	#15
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,776	Sorry, Socrates. You're right - I overreacted. The list of requirements to make a program function as a screensaver in all versions of Windows on all systems appears to be infinite. That's if such a list actually existed. Microsoft is very secretive about it. I've wasted about half the development time of the Aquarium just chasing down obscure Windows functions. I'm feeling the crush of age and I still want my tombstone to read "Created The Best Movie Ever Made", not "Got Passwords Working in Some Obscure Screensaver". Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

01-06-2002, 04:28 PM	#16
Socrates Sage Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: West Hills, CA Posts: 1,529	I understand the frustration with MS. That's an all to common story. My favorite was trying to learn Visual Basic and looking at their ridiculous all-encompassing examples and then copying them over exactly and finding they had MISTAKES in them! Often I had to learn what the example was trying to teach in order to FIX the example. Anyway. My point is this. I never demanded a password feature. I did mention it during the earlier versions, and it was stated it would get fixed, and I have never whined about it not being there. Just whined about it not getting delivered, and waited a month to do it ( a looong time for me Now it has. That is great. I am also glad that it was Prolific who did the fix according to Feldon. And Kudos to them for doing that. Now I just want to give them Kudos for putting the fix in my hands. That's all nothing more. PS. I am glad you are working on more of the artistic side and that Prolific is doing the technical minutia (regardless of speed). This means that I will get to buy bonus creatures at a much higher pace Bat rays? We don't need no stinking bat rays!

01-06-2002, 04:33 PM	#17
Ricordia Reef Keeper Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Utah Posts: 17	Confusion sets in...     I was under the impression that the only thing holding up 1.0 for us beta testers was in coding the website to handle the transfer of the new reg codes. This, in and of itself, is a trivial process. Has 1.0 <B><I>not</I></B> been shipped out to retail stores, as has been stated? If it has, why can't we get that version? Why are we forced to wait for version1.1? Ricordia

01-06-2002, 05:10 PM	#18
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,938	This, in and of itself, is a trivial process. Has 1.0 not been shipped out to retail stores, as has been stated? If it has, why can't we get that version? Sorry, let me clarify (And I'll edit my original post too)! Version 1.0 itself has been complete and virtually bug-free since the first week of November. The installer created at that time was 4 megabytes and a real hog. 1.0 and that installer is what you'll find on the boxed version of the Aquarium (which has appeared in no retail stores or online catalogs that I'm aware of). What's being beta-tested this week is the new slimmed down 350kb installer. Yes, it sounds trivial, but not only is the web hosting bill for SereneScreen.com a fortune right now, but Jim expects a higher standard of himself and of the Aquarium than others seem to expect of their own software. Example A: Iomega software for their ZIP drive. For the longest time, it was 12 megabytes. Now it's available in a "easier download" 5 megabyte package. The only important files for using a ZIP drive in there are about 800kb! Jim is disappointed enough that 99L grew 500kb because Microsoft refuses to provide him with information on how to use ADPCM compressed sound under DirectX's DirectSound (required to add the volume bar). He doesn't want a 3 mb installer for a 700kb program! There is one final pressing need for a 1.0 installer of some sort. Every single Windows 2000 and XP customer has trouble with the 99L installer because it tries to put the Aquarium in a location that only exists on Windows 95, 98, and ME. So I'm hopeful that sometime this week, 1.0 and the petite installer will be signed off and ready to go on the website. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman Last edited by feldon34; 01-06-2002 at 05:17 PM.

01-06-2002, 05:27 PM	#19
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,776	The CD version has no Key Code. The CD itself is the Key. The website coding is not trivial. A parsing algorithm has to be created that does this: Assume the typical user writes in, "Hi, I need a new Key Code. My name is Bill Smith, but I may have registered as Mary Smith because I was using my wife's credit card. We're divorced now, so I don't have her card number handy. Seems like it ended with 4053. I think it was last April (the registration, not the divorce). The Key Code was MSMI-something. I live in Salem, Oregon, now, but may have put down an address for a trailer park in Florida which we were staying in." The algorithm goes through the database (plus many thousands of email messages) to try to verify if the customer is legitimate, then generate and issue him a new Key. If you consider this coding trivial, then I'm certain you have a great future as a programmer. Also, Prolific is probably going to wait for me to finish the Lionfish, so that v1.0 will contain it, instead of having everyone download a new version the next day. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

01-07-2002, 03:05 AM	#20
pipeta Royal Gramma Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Israel Posts: 146	Originally posted by Jim Sachs Assume the typical user writes in, "Hi, I need a new Key Code. My name is Bill Smith, but I may have registered as Mary Smith because I was using my wife's credit card. We're divorced now, so I don't have her card number handy. Seems like it ended with 4053. I think it was last April (the registration, not the divorce). The Key Code was MSMI-something. I live in Salem, Oregon, now, but may have put down an address for a trailer park in Florida which we were staying in." The algorithm goes through the database (plus many thousands of email messages) to try to verify if the customer is legitimate, then generate and issue him a new Key. I don't think you have to leave this work for an algorithm, you have e-mail suport I know you weren't serious about that