Yes, another question about FSAA

FishyBusiness · 01-25-2002, 05:58 PM

Jim,

I ran into this post when I was visiting the alt.nvidia newsgroup. I was wondering if you could comment on it.

If you choose not to comment, it will not hurt my feelings.

However, I've run into something that seems very strange to me--don't understand why this is happening. I have a registered copy of the popular Serene Screen "Aquarium" screensaver, and enabling FSAA absolutely KILLS the frame rates on it. At 1024x768 with FSAA off, I get about 250 FPS. With
FSAA at 2x, this plummets to ~40 FPS, and drops further to ~23 FPS with quincunx enabled. I've never heard of this kind of performance hit with NVidia's current FSAA technology. Can anybody enlighten me as to what the heck is going on??

Thank you for your decision.

Socrates · 01-26-2002, 12:16 AM

https://www.feldoncentral.com/Sachs/...are_&_Drivers9

Don't kknow if this helps you.

Shinsa · 01-26-2002, 01:01 AM

nVidias drivers most likely. My Voodoo 5 also drops frame rate, but not THAT drastic.

130 FPS @ 1280x1024 (FSAA off)
50 FPS @ " " (FSAA 2x)
30 FPS @ " " (FSAA 4x)

Jim Sachs · 01-26-2002, 03:29 AM

Yeah, that guy has been writing to us complaining about his frame rates. He's upset that I'm unwilling to spend a week trying to figure out why he experiences such a drop when he uses FSAA.

feldon34 · 01-26-2002, 12:56 PM

File this under programming efforts Prolific should have on their list.

Antialiasing would be nice.

Socrates · 01-26-2002, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by Jim Sachs
Yeah, that guy has been writing to us complaining about his frame rates. He's upset that I'm unwilling to spend a week trying to figure out why he experiences such a drop when he uses FSAA.

How about people just try to understand that the fish are complex. The tank looks more real than any PC game ever seen. There is no other app anything like it to compare to, and oh well, I guess it's too much for the AA technology as it exists today.

The thing is that the aquarium looks more like a rendered TV commercial or short film happeining in real time than a PC game (those are usually pulled off like frame by frame I think from much more expensive equipment than most of us use). Clearly rendering this type of 3D in real time is not what recreational card manufacturers have in mind when they build a card or design a driver - they are looking to make games run fast.

Just my opinion.

Jim Sachs · 01-26-2002, 03:52 PM

That's all very true. None of the complainers has ever provided real-world benchmarks comparing the FSAA frame rate on the Aquarium with any other 3D program using the same resolution and polygon count. Both of these items make an enormous difference in the amount of work that the FSAA hardware/software has to do.

I've never heard of any special coding which will affect the frame rate when FSAA is used. You just send the polygons to the hardware, and it does whatever it wants with them.

feldon34 · 01-26-2002, 07:19 PM

Well Quake 3 throws around a TON of polygons and turning on Antialiasing doesn't drop the framerate at 1024x768 below 60fps.

I'm not saying the Aquarium is not complex. What I am saying is that there is something in there that is incompatible with FSAA.

The Aquarium looks awesome without FSAA, but would look even better with it, and I hope that Prolific will find some time in their busy schedules to look at supporting FSAA in a future version of the Aquarium, especially with the 3D background.

I don't believe for one second that there is too much geometry in the Aquarium for AA to handle, only that the movement algorithyms are very complex and would have to be modified to support AA somehow.

Jim, this is not something you should have to do, only Prolific if they have the time to look into it.

I'm pretty sure that there will come a time in the future when anti-aliasing on video cards will be hard-wired and you won't be able to turn it off.

Jim Sachs · 01-26-2002, 08:17 PM

How many polygons are in a ton?

Seriously, is there a way of finding out exactly how many polygons these games use, especially translucent ones? The movement algorithm should have no effect on FSAA.

I don't really want to spend too much time going down this road, since FSAA doesn't improve a hi-res app, and it causes banding in the background, so I've always just told people to shut it off.

Shinsa · 01-27-2002, 03:21 AM

I agree Jim.

But I would like to see soome sort of "OAA" or "Object Anti Aliasing".

In other words, the AA only affects the edges of the objects, NOT the entire object. This is probably much more complicated than FSAA, but would alieviate the problem of banding, and blurring textures (like the fishes).

My Voodoo 5 has an option for it, I'm gonna give it a shot, and see what happens...

Jim Sachs · 01-27-2002, 12:26 PM

There are commands to do this in Direct3D, but they don't work. The feature works beautifully on VooDoo cards, but only if the program is written in Glide, not Direct3D. I used it heavily in the Computrainer software to smooth out the hills.

Shinsa · 01-27-2002, 04:54 PM

Right Jim, didn't work.

Tried playing with dozens and dozens of settings under the D3D portion of my Voodoo 5 card.

Edge AA didn't do a thing for the SS. Nor did any other setting other than FSAA make a difference. I'll try it on HOMEWORLD next, I know that one uses OpenGL. I sure would like to see the effect of EDGE AA.

Jim Sachs · 01-27-2002, 05:20 PM

It's unlikely that you will find it used in any products. The code has to specially written to take advantage of edge antialiasing. First the solid polygons have to be drawn, then the D3DRS_EDGEANTIALIAS of the SetRenderState( ) function has to be enabled, then lines have to be drawn over the edges of any polygons which happen to form an outer edge of an object. The program must keep track of which polygons comprise this outer edge as the object rotates or camera moves.

01-25-2002, 05:58 PM	#1
FishyBusiness Registered Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 2,206	Yes, another question about FSAA Jim, I ran into this post when I was visiting the alt.nvidia newsgroup. I was wondering if you could comment on it. If you choose not to comment, it will not hurt my feelings. However, I've run into something that seems very strange to me--don't understand why this is happening. I have a registered copy of the popular Serene Screen "Aquarium" screensaver, and enabling FSAA absolutely KILLS the frame rates on it. At 1024x768 with FSAA off, I get about 250 FPS. With FSAA at 2x, this plummets to ~40 FPS, and drops further to ~23 FPS with quincunx enabled. I've never heard of this kind of performance hit with NVidia's current FSAA technology. Can anybody enlighten me as to what the heck is going on?? Thank you for your decision. Frank

01-26-2002, 12:16 AM	#2
Socrates Sage Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: West Hills, CA Posts: 1,529	Standard FAQ abswer re quincunx https://www.feldoncentral.com/Sachs/...are_&_Drivers9 Don't kknow if this helps you. Bat rays? We don't need no stinking bat rays!

01-26-2002, 01:01 AM	#3
Shinsa Registered Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Fayetteville, NC Posts: 407	nVidias drivers most likely. My Voodoo 5 also drops frame rate, but not THAT drastic. 130 FPS @ 1280x1024 (FSAA off) 50 FPS @ " " (FSAA 2x) 30 FPS @ " " (FSAA 4x) Bob "When you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." _______________________________________________

01-26-2002, 03:29 AM	#4
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,782	Yeah, that guy has been writing to us complaining about his frame rates. He's upset that I'm unwilling to spend a week trying to figure out why he experiences such a drop when he uses FSAA. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

01-26-2002, 12:56 PM	#5
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	File this under programming efforts Prolific should have on their list. Antialiasing would be nice. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

01-26-2002, 02:18 PM	#6
Socrates Sage Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: West Hills, CA Posts: 1,529	Originally posted by Jim Sachs Yeah, that guy has been writing to us complaining about his frame rates. He's upset that I'm unwilling to spend a week trying to figure out why he experiences such a drop when he uses FSAA. How about people just try to understand that the fish are complex. The tank looks more real than any PC game ever seen. There is no other app anything like it to compare to, and oh well, I guess it's too much for the AA technology as it exists today. The thing is that the aquarium looks more like a rendered TV commercial or short film happeining in real time than a PC game (those are usually pulled off like frame by frame I think from much more expensive equipment than most of us use). Clearly rendering this type of 3D in real time is not what recreational card manufacturers have in mind when they build a card or design a driver - they are looking to make games run fast. Just my opinion. Bat rays? We don't need no stinking bat rays!

01-26-2002, 03:52 PM	#7
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,782	That's all very true. None of the complainers has ever provided real-world benchmarks comparing the FSAA frame rate on the Aquarium with any other 3D program using the same resolution and polygon count. Both of these items make an enormous difference in the amount of work that the FSAA hardware/software has to do. I've never heard of any special coding which will affect the frame rate when FSAA is used. You just send the polygons to the hardware, and it does whatever it wants with them. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

01-26-2002, 07:19 PM	#8
feldon34 Forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 10,939	Well Quake 3 throws around a TON of polygons and turning on Antialiasing doesn't drop the framerate at 1024x768 below 60fps. I'm not saying the Aquarium is not complex. What I am saying is that there is something in there that is incompatible with FSAA. The Aquarium looks awesome without FSAA, but would look even better with it, and I hope that Prolific will find some time in their busy schedules to look at supporting FSAA in a future version of the Aquarium, especially with the 3D background. I don't believe for one second that there is too much geometry in the Aquarium for AA to handle, only that the movement algorithyms are very complex and would have to be modified to support AA somehow. Jim, this is not something you should have to do, only Prolific if they have the time to look into it. I'm pretty sure that there will come a time in the future when anti-aliasing on video cards will be hard-wired and you won't be able to turn it off. "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." - George Orwell "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman

01-26-2002, 08:17 PM	#9
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,782	How many polygons are in a ton? Seriously, is there a way of finding out exactly how many polygons these games use, especially translucent ones? The movement algorithm should have no effect on FSAA. I don't really want to spend too much time going down this road, since FSAA doesn't improve a hi-res app, and it causes banding in the background, so I've always just told people to shut it off. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

01-27-2002, 03:21 AM	#10
Shinsa Registered Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Fayetteville, NC Posts: 407	I agree Jim. But I would like to see soome sort of "OAA" or "Object Anti Aliasing". In other words, the AA only affects the edges of the objects, NOT the entire object. This is probably much more complicated than FSAA, but would alieviate the problem of banding, and blurring textures (like the fishes). My Voodoo 5 has an option for it, I'm gonna give it a shot, and see what happens... Bob "When you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." _______________________________________________

01-27-2002, 12:26 PM	#11
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,782	There are commands to do this in Direct3D, but they don't work. The feature works beautifully on VooDoo cards, but only if the program is written in Glide, not Direct3D. I used it heavily in the Computrainer software to smooth out the hills. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium

01-27-2002, 04:54 PM	#12
Shinsa Registered Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Fayetteville, NC Posts: 407	Right Jim, didn't work. Tried playing with dozens and dozens of settings under the D3D portion of my Voodoo 5 card. Edge AA didn't do a thing for the SS. Nor did any other setting other than FSAA make a difference. I'll try it on HOMEWORLD next, I know that one uses OpenGL. I sure would like to see the effect of EDGE AA. Bob "When you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." _______________________________________________

01-27-2002, 05:20 PM	#13
Jim Sachs Developer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Southern Oregon Posts: 9,782	It's unlikely that you will find it used in any products. The code has to specially written to take advantage of edge antialiasing. First the solid polygons have to be drawn, then the D3DRS_EDGEANTIALIAS of the SetRenderState( ) function has to be enabled, then lines have to be drawn over the edges of any polygons which happen to form an outer edge of an object. The program must keep track of which polygons comprise this outer edge as the object rotates or camera moves. Jim Sachs Creator of SereneScreen Aquarium